Letter to the FAA

On Friday, May 26, 2017 at 11:57:40 AM UTC-5, Karl Kunz wrote:
There are reports of "unexpected release" and "failure to release" for the Tost release as well, how do the two compare? Anything mechanical is prone to failure so to say the Schweizer is worse than any other release without some type of statistical analysis is kind of meaningless.

Isn't this a purview of the SSF? Burt Compton has responded to this thread and serves on its board. While he specifically stated he did not represent the SSF in this matter, perhaps you could request the Foundation look into the history of this problem to get those stats?
Mike

Originally Posted by Don Johnstone[_4_]

At 14:09 25 May 2017, Charlie M. UH & 002 owner/pilot wrote:
Make the numbers matter, do a world list, I wonder if we would even
break a
dozen broken ships even worldwide.....let alone fatalities.

Open canopies probably break more gliders.

That might not help much. I have seen a schweizer hook on a tug in
the UK but not lately, I have seen lots of TOST hooks.
The other part of this was ensuring that the release in the tug is as
close as possible to the throttle, in the UK this is mandatory, mainly as
the result of a tug upset in which a good friend of mine is killed.

If there are people in gliding who are more concerned with commercial
concerns than the safety of pilots, that is a real problem. If the
problem cannot be solved voluntarily what is left.

If this is the case then goon on yer Walt, make them have it!

Mr Johnstone,

I agree completely, to some there is more concern with maintaining a profitable commercial operation and little to none with tug pilot safety. Would it matter if there was one or one hundred tug pilot fatalities due to the current use of a system which is documented as prone to failure in SSA, SSF and FAA documents? I find it telling that Burt Compton didn't not respond when i pointed out verbatim the comments on the SSF website. I'm willing to engage in a dialogue.

The BGA seems to have teeth and uses them. The SSF and SSA obviously have no teeth nor a willingness to use whatever influence it has to correct this potentially deadly situation.

I have much research left to do but what I have so far supports my position.
There also is a question as to the use of the CG hook for aero tow. I see where New Zealand has recommended aero tow not be done with other than a nose hook and Germany had required special training for pilots flying CG hooks on aerotow. I am not advocating the restriction of the CG hook, this was not a contributing factor in my case but certainly seems to have been in others.

Walt

On Friday, May 26, 2017 at 2:02:57 PM UTC-4, Kevin Christner wrote:
Rich,

Wilbur Wright is another Sean alias.

I'll be interested to know if he's willing to deny his aliases to your face.

2C

On Thursday, May 25, 2017 at 2:55:35 PM UTC-4, Rich Owen wrote:
We don't know your name and I'm sure you won't email me to find the real story. When Walt brought up the issue we researched all factors and then made the decision to switch to Tost release systems on our towplanes. The safety of all the pilots that operate out of Seminole Lake, which includes our employees and staff, is our number one concern. Walt made a good case and we thought he was right. The Tost hooks are on back order but we expect to have them our ships within 4 weeks. We have spoken to our instructors and reviewed our procedures for losing sight of the towplanes/out of position on tow. We had the same conversation with our tow pilots. The staff here are professionals and take there job very seriously. They also read Rec Aviation Soaring and are getting frustrated that a small number of anonymous posters make comments that sully their reputation. I hope you do write the SSA so you will finally be out in the open. Our employees would like an opportunity to discuss the good we do for the sport.

Rich Owen

Hey Kevin. You and I need to have a face to face talk and sort your fantasy out.

Rich and I are fine, trust me.

We all know that Wilbur is your fantasy and that you have no life other than writing posts as Wilbur. You are obsessed with me, have been for a long time and are complete loser. You are creepy. You are also entirely irrelevant to all of these competition conversations. Yet you inject yourself into them constantly.

I honestly feel sorry for you.

If you disagree I am happy to talk about it. Just name the time and place. I will be there. Enough playing around.

Sean Fidler

On Wednesday, May 24, 2017 at 5:03:38 PM UTC-6, Dan Daly wrote:
On Wednesday, May 24, 2017 at 6:34:10 PM UTC-4, Sean Fidler wrote:
Walt, don't do it.

I believe the FES (Discus 2, Lak-17B, Lak-19, Ventus 2 and 3) gliders only have C of G hooks, and they take tows... It would be a pity to exclude them from the sport in the US; they are a stepping-stone to electric self-launch for us all once the batteries get better.

One clarification on this subject...When the the LAK-17B is modified with the FES the nose hook is replaced with a hook that is quite far forward (and just back from the FES nose cone). It is definitely not a CG hook...I believe Schempp-Hirth is also building their FES equipped gliders with a similar positioning of the tow hook. Thx - Renny

On Tuesday, May 30, 2017 at 4:51:28 PM UTC-4, Renny wrote:
On Wednesday, May 24, 2017 at 5:03:38 PM UTC-6, Dan Daly wrote:
On Wednesday, May 24, 2017 at 6:34:10 PM UTC-4, Sean Fidler wrote:
Walt, don't do it.

I believe the FES (Discus 2, Lak-17B, Lak-19, Ventus 2 and 3) gliders only have C of G hooks, and they take tows... It would be a pity to exclude them from the sport in the US; they are a stepping-stone to electric self-launch for us all once the batteries get better.

One clarification on this subject...When the the LAK-17B is modified with the FES the nose hook is replaced with a hook that is quite far forward (and just back from the FES nose cone). It is definitely not a CG hook...I believe Schempp-Hirth is also building their FES equipped gliders with a similar positioning of the tow hook. Thx - Renny

I stand corrected.

Dan

On Tuesday, May 30, 2017 at 3:45:55 PM UTC-4, Sean Fidler wrote:
On Friday, May 26, 2017 at 2:02:57 PM UTC-4, Kevin Christner wrote:
Rich,

Wilbur Wright is another Sean alias.

I'll be interested to know if he's willing to deny his aliases to your face.

2C

On Thursday, May 25, 2017 at 2:55:35 PM UTC-4, Rich Owen wrote:
We don't know your name and I'm sure you won't email me to find the real story. When Walt brought up the issue we researched all factors and then made the decision to switch to Tost release systems on our towplanes. The safety of all the pilots that operate out of Seminole Lake, which includes our employees and staff, is our number one concern. Walt made a good case and we thought he was right. The Tost hooks are on back order but we expect to have them our ships within 4 weeks. We have spoken to our instructors and reviewed our procedures for losing sight of the towplanes/out of position on tow. We had the same conversation with our tow pilots. The staff here are professionals and take there job very seriously. They also read Rec Aviation Soaring and are getting frustrated that a small number of anonymous posters make comments that sully their reputation. I hope you do write the SSA so you will finally be out in the open. Our employees would like an opportunity to discuss the good we do for the sport.

Rich Owen

Hey Kevin. You and I need to have a face to face talk and sort your fantasy out.

Rich and I are fine, trust me.

We all know that Wilbur is your fantasy and that you have no life other than writing posts as Wilbur. You are obsessed with me, have been for a long time and are complete loser. You are creepy. You are also entirely irrelevant to all of these competition conversations. Yet you inject yourself into them constantly.

I honestly feel sorry for you.

If you disagree I am happy to talk about it. Just name the time and place. I will be there. Enough playing around.

Sean Fidler

Awesome. When the three of you get together and compare catheter sizes, be sure and let us all know how it worked out, 'kay?

T8

On Tue, 30 May 2017 14:24:11 +0100, Walt Connelly
wrote:

and Germany had required special training for pilots
flying CG hooks on aerotow.

.... which isn't required anymore.

Regards from Germany
Andreas

Originally Posted by Andreas Maurer

On Tue, 30 May 2017 14:24:11 +0100, Walt Connelly
wrote:

and Germany had required special training for pilots
flying CG hooks on aerotow.

.... which isn't required anymore.

Regards from Germany
Andreas

Thank you Andreas, I do believe I used the past tense "had."

That being said I understand from some highly reliable sources that the intended use of the CG hook was for ground launches. If you think of where a string is attached to a KITE, it is not attached to the nose, it is attached where it is attached for a reason. However it is not my intention to cause any problems for the CG hook glider pilots out there....rather to give a fighting chance to the tow pilot to release quickly and effectively when the need arises. I have heard from tow pilots who will not tow a CG hook glider with a Schweizer on the tow plane.

I may be "Persona Non Grata" in the soaring world but I feel compelled to move forward in this endeavor. I have much work left to do.

Walt

At least on my DG400, my first CG hook glider, which I self launch most of the time, when I do take tows, mostly at contest, trim full forward for tow (as per the manual), makes it a no brainer.

Even at Mifflin at the Sports Class Nationals where we had some very sporty wind on a couple of the days, it was no harder than a nose hook, and even had some advantages because you were able to crab into the wind and not drag the tail of the town plane around on crosswind days.

Kevin
92

Nice discussion but.....
you are not considering the tow planes that have a winch system for tows.
There is a winch inside the fuselage that retracts the tow line after each tow.
At Williams they have a guillotine sytem to cut the tow line if needed.
For a dedicated tow plane this seems to be the most logical solution. Really saves wear on the tow rope and provides a very predictable way to "cut the cord" when needed.