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No SID in clearance, fly it anyway?



 
 
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  #21  
Old November 1st 03, 06:47 PM
Roy Smith
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In article ,
Greg Esres wrote:

you receive a vector from ATC, you are obligated to follow it (or
question it if you feel it is unsafe

What tower would give you is not a vector; it's a heading.


Is there any practical difference?
  #22  
Old November 1st 03, 06:58 PM
Greg Esres
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Is there any practical difference?

Yes...only radar vectors put the burden of obstacle clearance on the
controller. And radar vectors require radar contact.

So a tower guy giving me a heading isn't able to provide me with any
promise of obstacle clearance.


  #23  
Old November 1st 03, 07:57 PM
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Bob Gardner wrote:

Check the latest AIM...SIDs are back.

Bob Gardner


I believe you. I know they were getting close the last time I heard about it.

  #24  
Old November 1st 03, 07:59 PM
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Greg Esres wrote:

Is there any practical difference?

Yes...only radar vectors put the burden of obstacle clearance on the
controller. And radar vectors require radar contact.


And, at a mountain airport, until you reach MVA on departure, even the
radar controller and you are in a obstacle-clearance haze.


  #25  
Old November 1st 03, 08:39 PM
Ron Rosenfeld
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On Sat, 01 Nov 2003 17:28:45 GMT, Greg Esres wrote:

If the ODP says go to a fix, and climb in a holding pattern, and
Center already has someone holding there, then you've created a
problem.


Where might that happen?


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)
  #26  
Old November 1st 03, 09:18 PM
Ron Rosenfeld
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On Sat, 01 Nov 2003 17:30:12 GMT, Greg Esres wrote:

you receive a vector from ATC, you are obligated to follow it (or
question it if you feel it is unsafe

What tower would give you is not a vector; it's a heading.


That's not always the case. And to make matters worse, the pilot has no
way of knowing without direct knowledge. However, I have been told that
any tower-issued pre-takeoff headings (which really are Departure Control
generated) should comply with either an applicable ODP, or established
radar diverse vector area criteria.

Unfortunately, there have been plenty of holes in that system, so it
behooves the pilot to be alert if a tower-issued pre-takeoff heading is at
variance with a published ODP.






Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)
  #27  
Old November 2nd 03, 01:55 AM
Greg Esres
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That's not always the case. And to make matters worse, the pilot
has no way of knowing without direct knowledge.

When would that not be the case? And if it were the case, the pilot
must certainly know. If you don't hear the words "radar contact"
followed by a heading, then you're not being vectored.

  #28  
Old November 2nd 03, 01:57 AM
Greg Esres
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Where might that happen?

Lots of places, probably, but one that I picked at random and called
the tower was Sante Fe, NM.



  #29  
Old November 2nd 03, 02:48 AM
Ron Rosenfeld
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On Sun, 02 Nov 2003 00:57:17 GMT, Greg Esres wrote:

Where might that happen?

Lots of places, probably, but one that I picked at random and called
the tower was Sante Fe, NM.



I'm trying to understand how this problem develops.

It seems to me that in order for that problem to develop, ATC would have to
clear a departure from SAF while they have an aircraft holding at the SAF
VORTAC that is at or below the altitude to which the departing a/c was
cleared.

Is that what the tower said could happen? Or is there some other scenario?

If the tower says they issue clearances of this nature, I'd like to check
with some ATC safety folk that I know to verify that this sort of thing is
in accord with proper procedure.

Thanks.





Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)
  #30  
Old November 2nd 03, 03:40 AM
Ron Rosenfeld
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On Sun, 02 Nov 2003 00:55:54 GMT, Greg Esres wrote:

That's not always the case. And to make matters worse, the pilot
has no way of knowing without direct knowledge.

When would that not be the case? And if it were the case, the pilot
must certainly know. If you don't hear the words "radar contact"
followed by a heading, then you're not being vectored.


Well it should be the case whenever you receive heading instructions from
the tower that they either do not conflict with an ODP, or that they have
been assessed for a DVA. These vectors are below the MVA and a 200 f/nm
climb rate is assumed unless ATC obtains your concurrence with a higher
minimum rate of climb.

It has not always been the case in the past. MRY as recently as 1999 was
one facility where, at that time, they were issuing instructions in
conflict with an ODP. Specifically they were vectoring folk to the east
(towards some high mountains). I think this was changed when it was
pointed out to them.

What you say about hearing the magic words followed by a vector is
certainly what is commonly taught. And is certainly the case when
departing from a non-radar facility. However, it is my understanding that
in the case of radar departures (and this assumes you are at a radar
facility), the initial heading (the one given you by the tower prior to
departure) will not be preceded by those words, and yet ATC will still be
on the hook for obstacle clearance. Of course, you as the PIC have a
responsibility here, too.

I would expect that any pre-departure heading instruction (e.g. "fly runway
heading"; "turn left heading 020 after departure") would be in accord with
either the ODP or an established DVA. But since I have no information in
my cockpit regarding DVA's, I would be real careful at a strange airport.


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)
 




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