Instrument Student Pilot Filing IFR

"Jose" wrote in message
om...
2. A student instrument pilot cannot accept an IFR clearance.
Would I be correct in saying therefore, that the first time a pilot can
practice and get real familier with the normal IFR procedures could be
his first flight after being certified ?

No.

A student pilot can "relay the CFI's acceptance of a clearance", this
practice is just as good as actually accepting one.

Jose

Jose,
My understanding that by "accepting" you mean "reading back" ?
I think when you use the word relay, you do not mean that the student
informs ATC that he is relaying ?


Roy

In article . net,
"Roy N5804F" wrote:


Well thanks to all for the input so far.
The consensus seems to be that an instrument student cannot file an IFR plan
in his own name.
The basis of that opinion seems to hinge on who is PIC.
I am not sure, but I think that electronic filing via AOPA flight planner
would not give you any opportunity to use other than your own name ?
So maybe all filing would have to be done via the telephone or radio.

Roy

Just put "PIC is XXX" in the comments box (fill in your instructor's name).

"Jim Macklin" wrote:
Simply filing the flight plan OR operating in IMC condition
is a violation. IFR flight plan in VMC is a violation
unless the PIC NAMED, not just PIC is legal.

I know of no FAR that says anything about who may perform secretarial
functions such as typing some information into a computerized data-entry
form, dictating information to a FSS guy on the phone, or reading back a
radio transmission to a controller.

On 11/28/06 17:32, Jim Carter wrote:

-----Original Message-----
From: Jose ]
Posted At: Tuesday, November 28, 2006 7:12 PM
Posted To: rec.aviation.ifr
Conversation: Instrument Student Pilot Filing IFR
Subject: Instrument Student Pilot Filing IFR

2. A student instrument pilot cannot accept an IFR clearance.
Would I be correct in saying therefore, that the first time a pilot
can
practice and get real familier with the normal IFR procedures could
be
his
first flight after being certified ?

No.

A student pilot can "relay the CFI's acceptance of a clearance", this
practice is just as good as actually accepting one.

Jose
--
"There are 3 secrets to the perfect landing. Unfortunately, nobody
knows
what they are." - (mike).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

I'm not sure if it is still a popular practice, but when a student was
ready to work actual conditions in the system the instructor knew it and
was typically willing to delegate the authority for filing, copying,
accepting, executing, and amending the clearance to the student. Notice
I said delegate the authority, not the responsibility. The CFII or ATP
still retained the responsibility because he or she was the PIC and
everything was filed under his or her license.

By the time we had students ready for the system in actual conditions;
we didn't worry about them making silly mistakes. We were only working
on polishing and conditioning responses at that point.

Of course the lawyer population has blossomed since the mid-70s, and
frivolous lawsuits are more commonplace now, so this probably isn't
still an acceptable practice.



Acceptable or not, this is how I was trained two years ago.



--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
Cal Aggie Flying Farmers
Sacramento, CA

My understanding that by "accepting" you mean "reading back" ?
I think when you use the word relay, you do not mean that the student
informs ATC that he is relaying ?

The CFI officially "accepts" the clearance, and (with a wink and a nod),
the student reads it back. I doubt ATC cares who is accepting the
clearance, so long as it is accepted (or rejected). No, the student (in
my sceneario) would not state that he is relaying a clearance, he would
just read it back.

He is, however, doing it under the authority of the CFII.

Jose
--
"There are 3 secrets to the perfect landing. Unfortunately, nobody knows
what they are." - (mike).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Roy N5804F wrote:
If that is the case I would consider that the FAR's fail to address the need
for good operational training prior to being certified for instrument
flight.
Interesting isn't it ?

Kind of like how you suddenly become qualified to accept a Class B
clearance after you pass your PP checkride.

.... Alan

--
Alan Gerber
PP-ASEL
gerber AT panix DOT com

Actually, the only purpose I can think of for requiring the pilots name
is for search and rescue purposes. If it is for regulatory reasons,
then there should be a better way to make sure that no one else is
using your name in their flight plans. Since ATC is not verifying the
identify of the pilot every time they issue a clearance, I don't see
how the pilots name could be used for anything meaningful beyond S&R.

This also raises the question of whether a student pilot can put his
name down as PIC for a dual cross country flight.



Roy Smith wrote:
In article . net,
"Roy N5804F" wrote:


Well thanks to all for the input so far.
The consensus seems to be that an instrument student cannot file an IFR plan
in his own name.
The basis of that opinion seems to hinge on who is PIC.
I am not sure, but I think that electronic filing via AOPA flight planner
would not give you any opportunity to use other than your own name ?
So maybe all filing would have to be done via the telephone or radio.

Roy

Just put "PIC is XXX" in the comments box (fill in your instructor's name).

"Roy Smith" wrote in message
...

In article . net,
"Roy N5804F" wrote:


Well thanks to all for the input so far.
The consensus seems to be that an instrument student cannot file an IFR
plan
in his own name.
The basis of that opinion seems to hinge on who is PIC.
I am not sure, but I think that electronic filing via AOPA flight planner
would not give you any opportunity to use other than your own name ?
So maybe all filing would have to be done via the telephone or radio.

Roy

Just put "PIC is XXX" in the comments box (fill in your instructor's
name).


Neat one Roy !

On Tue, 28 Nov 2006 07:47:36 -0500, Roy Smith wrote:

In article et,
"Roy N5804F" wrote:


Is it legal for a non-instrument rated pilot to file IFR in his own name in
order to undergo instrument training while accompanied by his CFII ?
In other words.
Who should file IFR for a training instrument flight ? The student or the
CFII ?

Thanks for input

If you are not instrument rated, current, etc, it's not legal for you to
act as PIC under IFR. You can file the flight plan (i.e. type it into
DUATS, dictate it to FSS on the phone, etc) but put your instructor's name
down in the PIC box.

As a student I always filed under my name, but like some others have
mentioned, listed instrument training flight.

OTOH we were out shooting approaches (not on a flight plan) with the
weather going down. It soon became apparent we were not going to be
able to maintain VMC and told approach we'd either need to break off
or be put in the system. They just entered the plane into the system
without a whole lot of questions. The instructor mentioned to me that
I should have given his name but not to worry about it. I don't
recall them even asking for a name. Any way after a couple of
approaches we thanked them and headed for home while we could still
get in on the VOR approach. (this was before GPS approaches were
common)

OTOH (I've mentioned this before) I've had it suddenly go IMC just
after lift off almost right in front of the tower. Once second it was
10 miles and well over 3000 and just a couple seconds later I could
barely see the edge of the runway about 30 feet below and absolutely
nothing ahead. I made an off hand remark to the tower about looking
like the visibility was going down a bit to which they replied
they'd noticed that. They knew we were IMC, I knew they knew, and they
knew I knew they knew. We broke out on top still climbing out over
the down wind leg. I reported on top at 3000 or what ever it was.
They thanked me and when we hit 10 miles they announced the weather
and were now IFR only.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

Roy N5804F wrote:

Is it legal for a non-instrument rated pilot to file IFR in his own name in
order to undergo instrument training while accompanied by his CFII ?
In other words.
Who should file IFR for a training instrument flight ? The student or the
CFII ?

Thanks for input


The person who is ABLE to legally recieve the clearance is who's name is
listed as PIC. The student can file.. but the CFII's name goes on the plan.