"C-175 SoCal Beware" Original Poster Replies

OK, Jim has a point, in that I made my opinion known without having
numerical data to back up my opinion. I retract my comments to
whatever degree is appropriate based on that alone. My "attitude" in
my last post came from two equal directions. First, as Jim and others
said, I wasted a tank of gas and felt like someone was being less then
forthright with me. But second, when I posted originally, I got flamed
for being a cry baby, or a whiner, or a spoiled brat, and NONE of
those nasty comments were deserved.

Yes, I saw a beater and I was really ****ed off about it, and so I
ranted a little. However, what remains is that I found an airplane
that I SUSPECTED was either unairworthy or very close to it on several
levels. I feel that a less-educated or less-experienced person MIGHT
have been taken for a ride, so I figured that (personal irritation
aside) it was worth mentioning. If my post made ONE airplane buyer
look a little more closely at an airplane he was buying, then I stand
by my words in a Nomex tuxedo.

Another underlying point I was trying to make was that even though I
am willing to rely on my own un-licensed, "eyeball" judgement, I
recommended that buyers beware and that it is a good idea to get a
real pre-buy inspection if you can. Obviously Jim or any other good IA
would know a lot more than I.

I truly wish that I had taken the time to (learn which, and then)
bring the right drill bits and have the numerical information with me
that day, and so I could have posted that this particular airplane
was/was not within the limits. My position was that if it was even
reasonably average, I would have bought the airplane and then restored
or upgraded it over time while I was flying it.

I will issue an apology to the seller if it is found that the seat
rails were within legal limits, that is, if I were willing to even
speak to him. I will issue an apology to the newsgroup(s) for being a
cry baby, and I'll offer an apology to Jim Weir if I poked back at him
a little too quickly. I'll offer an apology to the manufacturer of the
T and Z drill bits as well while I'm at it.

The experienced Cessna mechanics I have spoken to assure me that
replacing the seat rails is a real pain in the ass, and is far more
difficult than others in the newsgroup have assumed. I have not
replaced Cessna seat rails, so I can't say from experience. I
understand that it is a very painful and awkward task to get at the
backside of several of the rivets, and many shops use Cherry rivets or
other blind rivets to do it out of necessity.

If I misunderstood or was uninformed about an AD on the flap tracks,
then I will issue yet another apology. In my personal un-licensed and
apparently foolish opinion, you should not be able to wiggle the flaps
up and down an inch, hearing the rollers thump back and forth in the
tracks. One Cessna-experienced IA told me that you should not be able
to put more than one business card thickness between the roller and
the track. I am sure that there is some official feeler gauge
measurement, but I didn't have that info with me either.

I also would have bet that frozen aileron pushrod ball joints are not
considered airworthy. I was trained to rotate the ball joints a few
degrees each way with your fingers on a pre-flight inspection, to make
sure the joints are not frozen. I was NOT of the opinion that you
should need a wrench or needle-nose pliers to rotate the ball joints,
finger pressure should be enough. I am not aware of any numerical
measurement on that.

I was trained as a brand new student pilot that the controls should be
"free and clear", observed by BOTH moving the control surfaces with
finger pressure AND the lack of excess friction at the control yoke.
There was no numerical measurement that I recall, just good old common
sense and average mechanical aptitude.

Silly me, I also ASSUMED that you should NOT be able to move the
pilot's side control yoke up and down vertically twice as much as the
copilot's side.

That 175 MIGHT have been legal to fly, but it was a worn out beater
and there were significant maintenance concerns that would have been a
major issue either now or at some time in the near future. Period.
Somebody should have bought it for five or ten grand, trucked it home,
and restored it into a "Classic Era" Oshkosh champion.

Adieu, newsgroups, now I remember why I left in the first place.

Bill

On 7 Jul 2004 10:36:41 -0700, (Bill Berle) wrote:

snip

The experienced Cessna mechanics I have spoken to assure me that
replacing the seat rails is a real pain in the ass, and is far more
difficult than others in the newsgroup have assumed. I have not
replaced Cessna seat rails, so I can't say from experience. I
understand that it is a very painful and awkward task to get at the
backside of several of the rivets, and many shops use Cherry rivets or
other blind rivets to do it out of necessity.

I suppose everything is relative.... I've had the entire floors
drilled off (front & rear) in under an hour. Makes seat track
replacement easy grins and you can also take the opportunity
to clean the inner belly of all that crap that has accumulated there
over the years.

You need the right bucking bars to get at all the rivets (might have
to make/modify one or two).

I agree the average owner may not want to tackle this.... (under
the supervision of an A&P/IA, of course). I only wanted to mention
that (at least in my opinion), it ain't that big a deal....

snip

Adieu, newsgroups, now I remember why I left in the first place.

Bill

Stick around. Every now & then we get our feathers ruffled
(been there myself). In the grand scheme of things (the meaning
of life, etc.), it's no big deal....

Bela P. Havasreti

Bela...

You are probably ten times the sheet metal man than I am. I limit my expertise
to paperwork, inspection, and avionics (not necessarily in that order).

However, if you can do a Cessna seat rail, with real buck-em rivets and not the
approved bolts, inside of two hours, then I will bring my airplane to YOU when
the next rail needs replacing.

I helped the IA that knew what he was doing on the last pass, and the only thing
I want to do less next time is put the fuel cells in (and don't get me started
on THAT bloody trail).

Hey, Berle, stick around. We all take turns getting our ass nailed to the floor
{;-)



Jim



Bela P. Havasreti
shared these priceless pearls of wisdom:

-
-I suppose everything is relative.... I've had the entire floors
-drilled off (front & rear) in under an hour. Makes seat track
-replacement easy grins and you can also take the opportunity
-to clean the inner belly of all that crap that has accumulated there
-over the years.
-
-You need the right bucking bars to get at all the rivets (might have
-to make/modify one or two).
-
-I agree the average owner may not want to tackle this.... (under
-the supervision of an A&P/IA, of course). I only wanted to mention
-that (at least in my opinion), it ain't that big a deal....
-
-snip
-
-Adieu, newsgroups, now I remember why I left in the first place.
-
-Bill
-
-Stick around. Every now & then we get our feathers ruffled
-(been there myself). In the grand scheme of things (the meaning
-of life, etc.), it's no big deal....
-
-Bela P. Havasreti



Jim Weir (A&P/IA, CFI, & other good alphabet soup)
VP Eng RST Pres. Cyberchapter EAA Tech. Counselor
http://www.rst-engr.com

On Wed, 07 Jul 2004 17:23:13 -0700, Jim Weir wrote:

How do I respond to that without sounding like a complete ass? (don't
answer that question!). I guess if I can hang my hat on something,
it's being a half-way-decent sheet metal man.

Just recently, I helped a good buddy do new fuel cells on a '57 C-180.
We pulled the wings and drilled off the (inboard) butt-ribs.
I am at a loss as to how folks can accomplish this task without
pulling the wings.... (i.e, remove the old fuel cells and offer the
new fuel cells down into the wing bays through that 10 inch diameter,
or whatever it is fuel filler hole in the top of the wings). Not to
mention getting all the clips/hangars snapped (that was tough enough
with the wings pulled). Anyway, they are far better wrenches, and far
more patient then I am....

I guess in simple terms, via my long-term project I've been working on
for the last 8+ years, drilling scores of rivets out, removing skin
panels and riveting newly fabricated ones back on has become my
"briar patch".

Bela P. Havasreti

Bela...

You are probably ten times the sheet metal man than I am. I limit my expertise
to paperwork, inspection, and avionics (not necessarily in that order).

However, if you can do a Cessna seat rail, with real buck-em rivets and not the
approved bolts, inside of two hours, then I will bring my airplane to YOU when
the next rail needs replacing.

I helped the IA that knew what he was doing on the last pass, and the only thing
I want to do less next time is put the fuel cells in (and don't get me started
on THAT bloody trail).

Hey, Berle, stick around. We all take turns getting our ass nailed to the floor
{;-)



Jim



Bela P. Havasreti
shared these priceless pearls of wisdom:

-
-I suppose everything is relative.... I've had the entire floors
-drilled off (front & rear) in under an hour. Makes seat track
-replacement easy grins and you can also take the opportunity
-to clean the inner belly of all that crap that has accumulated there
-over the years.
-
-You need the right bucking bars to get at all the rivets (might have
-to make/modify one or two).
-
-I agree the average owner may not want to tackle this.... (under
-the supervision of an A&P/IA, of course). I only wanted to mention
-that (at least in my opinion), it ain't that big a deal....
-
-snip
-
-Adieu, newsgroups, now I remember why I left in the first place.
-
-Bill
-
-Stick around. Every now & then we get our feathers ruffled
-(been there myself). In the grand scheme of things (the meaning
-of life, etc.), it's no big deal....
-
-Bela P. Havasreti



Jim Weir (A&P/IA, CFI, & other good alphabet soup)
VP Eng RST Pres. Cyberchapter EAA Tech. Counselor
http://www.rst-engr.com