Safety: Planes vs Bikes

Beav wrote:
"High Plains Thumper" wrote...
BrianNZ wrote:
Peter R. wrote:
"vincent p. norris" wrote:

Half a century has passed since then, and I have never
again been asked if I fly, when taking out insurance.

Oh, they still ask.

I dread the day when insurance becomes compulsory.

Like in US or Japan?

Or the UK. In fact, Europe as a whole (as opposed to a hole).

True. Perhaps the lack of compulsory insurance in New Zealand results from
the only obstacles being sheep? ;-)

--
HPT

Jim Logajan wrote:
"Charles Talleyrand" wrote:
[ Re GA flying vs. motorcycle riding ]
I've been asked several times which of these things is more dangerous.
Can anyone provide some statistics on this?

Riding a motorcycle is more dangerous on both a per distance and per time
basis. See Table 4, columns 1 and 4 in this document:

"Cross Modal Safety Comparisons"
http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/...omparisons.pdf

That document concludes, among other things, that:
c. Motorcycling is the least safe form of transport."

So sell your bike and go flying. ;-)


Hmmmm......

This document claims there is a motorcycle fatality every 5.6 million
vehicle km.
( 17.75 deaths per 100,000,000 vehicle km, table 4 column 1)
It also claims there is a motorcycle fatality every 11,000 vehicle
hours.
(8.8 deaths per 100,000 vehicle hours, table 4 column 4)

Therefore the average Australian motorcycle goes 495 km per hour.
(5633802.82 km per death / 11363.6364 hours per death)

Can someone explain this to me?

-Charles Talleyrand

"James Prine" wrote in message
oups.com...
Charles Talleyrand wrote:
I fly a small airplane (a Cessna 150) that is well maintained. I fly
over forests in good weather and typically during the day. My biggest
fear is the engine quits over the forest and I have no place to make a
deadstick landing except the tops of large trees.

Charles, I used to ride my motorcycle to the Elmdale Airpark in
Abilene, Texas many years ago, so I could make sport parachute jumps.
It was rather convenient, because my helmet, jumpsuit, boots, goggles,
gloves, etc., were interchangeable for both riding the bike and jumping
(and no, I didn't wear the parachutes to the DZ; I kept my Para-
Commander and my cheapo T-10 rig in a locker).

I also earned my PP/SEL and later became a cave diver (mostly in
Florida); I earned my living as a law enforcement officer most of the
time.

An insurance salesman offered the guys in my platoon life insurance
packages, and when I filled out the forms and listed the activities I
engaged in, the salesman just laughed and tore up the forms right in
front of me. He explained that sure, his company would be glad to take
the premiums, but it'd be theft because there was NO WAY they'd pay off
if my luck ran out.

I don't think that's changed much over the years.

I luckily took out an additional life insurance policy just before I became
temporarily uninsurable. Riding didn't increase my rates at all, but that was
because it flat didn't pay for dying while engaged in risky behavior, including
motorcycling, snow machining, etc, etc, etc.

Robert

Charles Talleyrand wrote this on Fri, 25 Aug 2006 23:24:06 -0700. My
reply is below.

This document claims there is a motorcycle fatality every 5.6
million vehicle km.

It also claims there is a motorcycle fatality every 11,000 vehicle
hours.

Therefore the average Australian motorcycle goes 495 km per hour.

Can someone explain this to me?

Sure! Well, um, you see ...?

--
... Chuck Rhode, Sheboygan, WI, USA
... 1979 Honda Goldwing GL1000 (Geraldine)
... Weather: http://LacusVeris.com/WX
... 71° — Wind Calm — Obscured. Fog; lightning.

On Sat, 26 Aug 2006 09:42:10 -0500, Chuck Rhode
wrote:

Charles Talleyrand wrote this on Fri, 25 Aug 2006 23:24:06 -0700. My
reply is below.

This document claims there is a motorcycle fatality every 5.6
million vehicle km.

It also claims there is a motorcycle fatality every 11,000 vehicle
hours.

Therefore the average Australian motorcycle goes 495 km per hour.

Can someone explain this to me?

Sure! Well, um, you see ...?

They probably added NZ in to it - that tends to skew the
average :-)


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When I first started ridding a motorcycle a friend told me that most people
will tell you that one needs to ride a bike like other people don't see
you. He said this was NOT enough. He said the correct way to ride a
motorcycle is to ride like other drivers see you and are aiming for you.
He also said that most motorcycle accidents happen in the first year of
ridding.

When I first started flying at the age of 16 (I didn't have a drivers
license at the time and had to hitch-hike to the airport to fly) my
instructor told me to never fly into a storm and always fly with a landing
spot in mind. He said you should always fly with the expectation that your
engine will quit at the most inappropiate time.

One of my instructors was a retired bush pilot from Alaska and another had
been a WWII bomber pilot with about 12,000 hours of flight time. Both made
me practice emergency landings by stopping the engine in midflight without
warning. Dead stopping the prop (note the prop should be in a horizontal
position so one doesn't damage the prop or engine crankshaft when making
an emergency landing, e.g. cost less to fix after the crash) and removing
the key from the on/off switch. Only after I had picked out a road or
field and was flaring out for landing did they restart the engine.

A few other notes they mentioned to me on emergency landings.

If on final flare out one is headed for a fence or other flexible object
don't attempt to pull up at the last minute and risk stalling out...just
go on through it.

The other is that if one were in a plane with retractable gear and the only
spot to land was in a field with crops such as cotton or soy beans to leave
the gear up and make a belly landing. One is more likely to flip a plane
with the gear down and once again it cost more to repair landing gear than
some sheet metal.

Statistics aside another factor in minimizing risk is proper training and
education.

Do you know the difference between a power pilot and a glider pilot? When
the power plane pilot needs to make an unexpected landing he/she will look
for any place to land. The glider pilot looks for the place where he/she
will get the best meal.

Frank Bartels
Maryland

____________________________________
Posted via Aviatorlive.com
http://www.aviatorlive.com

On 8/25/2006 8:39 AM Matt Whiting mumbled something about the following:
NrDg wrote:

"Charles Talleyrand" wrote in message
ups.com...

I fly a small airplane (a Cessna 150) that is well maintained. I fly
over forests in good weather and typically during the day. My biggest
fear is the engine quits over the forest and I have no place to make a
deadstick landing except the tops of large trees.

I drive a moderate motorcycle (a Honda Nighthawk 750) at moderate
speeds through my small town and through the surrounding forests. My
biggest fears are either that I will slide on a patch of dirt on the
road and crash or someone will hit me with their car through
inattention.

I've been asked several times which of these things is more dangerous.
Can anyone provide some statistics on this?


What I have heard and believe myself is that the risk of death is
similar for both activities on average. Hazards are different. Private
pilots tend to do themselve in with their own mistakes. Riders get got
by others a lot more.

It has been a while, but my recollection is that the Hurt report doesn't
bear out the claim that motorcycles are more often done in by others. I
believe more than 50% of the motorcycle fatalities involved only the
motorcyclist.

Matt

His statement is correct. More motorcyclists are done in by others than
pilots are done in by others. He didn't claim that the majority of
motorcycle fatalities are the result of other motorists.

If only 45% of motorcycle fatalities are by other motorists, that's a
much larger percentage of airplane fatalities by other pilots.

On 8/25/2006 12:28 PM Robert M. Gary mumbled something about the following:
I'd put my kinds in an airplane with a safe pilot long before I'd put
them on the back of a motorcycle with a crazy rider. It all depends on
the person at the controls.

-Robert



And I would rather put my kids on the back of a motorcycle with a safe
rider than put them in an airplane with a crazy pilot.

Atticus Finch wrote:
On 8/25/2006 12:28 PM Robert M. Gary mumbled something about the following:
I'd put my kinds in an airplane with a safe pilot long before I'd put
them on the back of a motorcycle with a crazy rider. It all depends on
the person at the controls.

-Robert



And I would rather put my kids on the back of a motorcycle with a safe
rider than put them in an airplane with a crazy pilot.

Amen

"alank" wrote in news:IWzHg.4185$_q4.3573@dukeread09:

On page 12 of 72 of the below listed Recent Trends in Fatal Motorcycle
Crashes -

"In 2004, motorcycles made up nearly 2.4 percent of all registered
vehicles in the United States and accounted for only 0.3 percent of all
vehicle miles traveled. In comparison, motorcycle riders accounted for
5.3 percent of total traffic fatalities in 1995 and have increased to
9.4 percent of the total traffic fatalities in 2004. Per 100,000
registered vehicles, the fatality rate for motorcycle riders (69.33) in
2004 was 4.6 times the fatality rate for passenger car occupants
(15.05). Per vehicle mile traveled in 2004, motorcycle riders (39.89)
were about 34 times more likely than passenger car occupants (1.18) to
die in a motor vehicle traffic crash."

So, motorcycle riders are 34 times more likely to die per mile then in a
car. I believe the analysis on GA to cars is about 6 to 8 times more
likely. Looks like there is your answer.

There is a major flaw in this comparison of past and current
fatality rates.

First of all, car design has changed dramatically over the years
to increase occupant survivability rates. Little to nothing has
changed for motorcyclists.

The problem is that it only APPEARS that motorcycle fatalities
have increased in proportion to car fatalities. The reality is
that car fatalities have decreased whereas motorcycle fatalities
may have stayed the same, or even dropped, but not as dramatically.
This must be taken form teh perspective of a fixed number of
persons.

Just to make up some numbers....

10,000 cars and 100 bikes.

In 1950, 500 car drivers and 10 bikers die. That makes bikers
2% of the fatalities.

Then technology steps in and invents air bags, crumple zones,
uni-body construction, etc...but little is done for bikes,
except mandatory helmet laws.

50 years later, for the same group of 10,000 cars and 100 bikes,
there's only 100 car fatalities and 5 biker deaths. Now the
proportion says that bikers make up 5% of road fatalites, 2.5
times more than 50 years before.

See the problem?

Brian
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