Texas Tragedy Info?

On 6/19/2012 11:06 AM, soartech wrote:
On Jun 19, 11:35 am, Nigel wrote:
If the tail dolly was left on the angle of attack on the ground run would
be less so it wouldnt lift off till a higher speed had been reached. Could
this have had any control effects on tow?
If the toddler was sitting on his mothers lap his feet would be straight
out in an ideal place to interfere with the stick. Bad bad idea.

Are the wing runners trained to check for extra big orange things
hanging off the glider
before takeoff? I know it is not their fault, but at the critical
launch the pilot is helpless to
see this mistake.

Making zero speculation as to root cause(s) of this tragedy, and considering
only the presence of the tail dolly at the start of aerotow, it's clear to any
informed soaring participant that this item was missed by at least one person
(PIC), and presumably two (wing runner).

I was "lucky enough" to witness a dolly-on takeoff prior to my solo (Phoebus
A; PIC's initial flight in it; it ended well), and the more experienced people
around at the time gave me a thorough exposure to all the myriad errors made
along the way to such a launch. The lessons were obvious...once they'd been
pointed out to me.

I've also begun one takeoff roll with my tail dolly attached (haste;
inexperienced wing-runner), realized ~when tuggie applied power I couldn't
remember having checked for tail dolly removal, listened (no joy one way or
the other), tried a tentative rudder input (inconclusive), pulled the plug
(listening to that little voice in my skull). There it was, on the fuselage,
in all its international orange glory. (What an idiot!)

Point being - others having already touched upon likely
CG/directional-stability issues associated with its presence - that every
reader who's hearing little voices in his/her head about the presence of the
tail dolly in this terribly sad instance ought to be actively listening to
that voice against the future day it may (will?) need to be acted upon.
Clearly, beginning a takeoff roll with the taildolly attached is an avoidable
mistake...even if in a very few designs it may be self-correcting (e.g. G-102).

Bob W.

On Jun 18, 4:49*pm, Tony wrote:
On Monday, June 18, 2012 5:12:27 PM UTC-5, Mark Dickson wrote:
Controls not connected seems obvious cause.

I looked at the local Lark after work today and I think it would be tough to swing the Horizontal/Elevator halves into place and pin them together without having the controls connected. *Like any attempt at a fool-proof system I'm sure it is possible though. *That doesn't discount the possibility of a problem somewhere else in the control system.

As a one-time Lark owner, I agree that it would be difficult to
assemble the tail improperly. However the trim tab is very powerful
and the two solid wires which operate it are easily damaged. More
likely is the child yanking the trim lever back and forth.

On Tuesday, June 19, 2012 1:26:51 PM UTC-4, BobW wrote:
On 6/19/2012 11:06 AM, soartech wrote:
On Jun 19, 11:35 am, Nigel wrote:
If the tail dolly was left on the angle of attack on the ground run would
be less so it wouldnt lift off till a higher speed had been reached. Could
this have had any control effects on tow?
If the toddler was sitting on his mothers lap his feet would be straight
out in an ideal place to interfere with the stick. Bad bad idea.

Are the wing runners trained to check for extra big orange things
hanging off the glider
before takeoff? I know it is not their fault, but at the critical
launch the pilot is helpless to
see this mistake.

Making zero speculation as to root cause(s) of this tragedy, and considering
only the presence of the tail dolly at the start of aerotow, it's clear to any
informed soaring participant that this item was missed by at least one person
(PIC), and presumably two (wing runner).

I was "lucky enough" to witness a dolly-on takeoff prior to my solo (Phoebus
A; PIC's initial flight in it; it ended well), and the more experienced people
around at the time gave me a thorough exposure to all the myriad errors made
along the way to such a launch. The lessons were obvious...once they'd been
pointed out to me.

I've also begun one takeoff roll with my tail dolly attached (haste;
inexperienced wing-runner), realized ~when tuggie applied power I couldn't
remember having checked for tail dolly removal, listened (no joy one way or
the other), tried a tentative rudder input (inconclusive), pulled the plug
(listening to that little voice in my skull). There it was, on the fuselage,
in all its international orange glory. (What an idiot!)

Point being - others having already touched upon likely
CG/directional-stability issues associated with its presence - that every
reader who's hearing little voices in his/her head about the presence of the
tail dolly in this terribly sad instance ought to be actively listening to
that voice against the future day it may (will?) need to be acted upon.
Clearly, beginning a takeoff roll with the taildolly attached is an avoidable
mistake...even if in a very few designs it may be self-correcting (e.g. G-102).
Bob W

A real risk also, and I say this without speculation in this case, is for some really helpful person to start screaming right away on the radio about the tail dolly. In a situation like this, it is FAR better to let the pilot get high enough to terminate the tow reasonably, than panic him into a low premature dangerous release. This also permits him to organize his landing allowing for the almost inevitable spin around the wheel groud loop.
UH

On Jun 19, 1:13*pm, wrote:
On Tuesday, June 19, 2012 1:26:51 PM UTC-4, BobW wrote:
On 6/19/2012 11:06 AM, soartech wrote:
On Jun 19, 11:35 am, Nigel *wrote:
If the tail dolly was left on the angle of attack on the ground run would
be less so it wouldnt lift off till a higher speed had been reached. Could
this have had any control effects on tow?
If the toddler was sitting on his mothers lap his feet would be straight
out in an ideal place to interfere with the stick. Bad bad idea.

Are the wing runners trained to check for extra big orange things
hanging off the glider
before takeoff? I know it is not their fault, but at the critical
launch the pilot is helpless to
see this mistake.

Making zero speculation as to root cause(s) of this tragedy, and considering
only the presence of the tail dolly at the start of aerotow, it's clear to any
informed soaring participant that this item was missed by at least one person
(PIC), and presumably two (wing runner).

I was "lucky enough" to witness a dolly-on takeoff prior to my solo (Phoebus
A; PIC's initial flight in it; it ended well), and the more experienced people
around at the time gave me a thorough exposure to all the myriad errors made
along the way to such a launch. The lessons were obvious...once they'd been
pointed out to me.

I've also begun one takeoff roll with my tail dolly attached (haste;
inexperienced wing-runner), realized ~when tuggie applied power I couldn't
remember having checked for tail dolly removal, listened (no joy one way or
the other), tried a tentative rudder input (inconclusive), pulled the plug
(listening to that little voice in my skull). There it was, on the fuselage,
in all its international orange glory. (What an idiot!)

Point being - others having already touched upon likely
CG/directional-stability issues associated with its presence - that every
reader who's hearing little voices in his/her head about the presence of the
tail dolly in this terribly sad instance ought to be actively listening to
that voice against the future day it may (will?) need to be acted upon.
Clearly, beginning a takeoff roll with the taildolly attached is an avoidable
mistake...even if in a very few designs it may be self-correcting (e.g. G-102).

Bob W

A real risk also, and I say this without speculation in this case, is for some really helpful person to start screaming right away on the radio about the tail dolly. In a situation like this, it is FAR better to let the pilot get high enough to terminate the tow reasonably, than panic him into a low premature dangerous release. This also permits him to organize his landing allowing for the almost inevitable spin around the wheel groud loop.

UH

We once had a rental pilot take off with the tail dolly on a Genesis.
Another pilot landed saying he thought he saw the G2 with the dolly on
it. Then we had to make a decision - make a radio call or not. We
decided not to make the call so as not to panic the pilot and because
we didn't think the dolly would hit the ground on landing anyway.

The pilot landed without incident and, as I had been elected to talk
with him, I sauntered out to the glider with the pilot still sitting
in it. "How was your flight?", I asked. "Outstanding", he answered,
"the glider handled better than ever". "Well", I said, "we told you
it would handle better with the CG further aft but we'd prefer you did
it with the internal weights not the tail dolly." It took a few
seconds for that to soak in then his face went grey.

I've see the Lark being flown with the tail dolly on before
had one of our club members (a commercial pilot) do this with passengers on
board
He would have never even known this "Daaa"if I hadn't been there to greet
him when it returned........
tim



wrote in message
...
On Tuesday, June 19, 2012 1:26:51 PM UTC-4, BobW wrote:
On 6/19/2012 11:06 AM, soartech wrote:
On Jun 19, 11:35 am, Nigel wrote:
If the tail dolly was left on the angle of attack on the ground run
would
be less so it wouldnt lift off till a higher speed had been reached.
Could
this have had any control effects on tow?
If the toddler was sitting on his mothers lap his feet would be
straight
out in an ideal place to interfere with the stick. Bad bad idea.

Are the wing runners trained to check for extra big orange things
hanging off the glider
before takeoff? I know it is not their fault, but at the critical
launch the pilot is helpless to
see this mistake.

Making zero speculation as to root cause(s) of this tragedy, and
considering
only the presence of the tail dolly at the start of aerotow, it's clear to
any
informed soaring participant that this item was missed by at least one
person
(PIC), and presumably two (wing runner).

I was "lucky enough" to witness a dolly-on takeoff prior to my solo
(Phoebus
A; PIC's initial flight in it; it ended well), and the more experienced
people
around at the time gave me a thorough exposure to all the myriad errors
made
along the way to such a launch. The lessons were obvious...once they'd
been
pointed out to me.

I've also begun one takeoff roll with my tail dolly attached (haste;
inexperienced wing-runner), realized ~when tuggie applied power I couldn't
remember having checked for tail dolly removal, listened (no joy one way
or
the other), tried a tentative rudder input (inconclusive), pulled the plug
(listening to that little voice in my skull). There it was, on the
fuselage,
in all its international orange glory. (What an idiot!)

Point being - others having already touched upon likely
CG/directional-stability issues associated with its presence - that every
reader who's hearing little voices in his/her head about the presence of
the
tail dolly in this terribly sad instance ought to be actively listening to
that voice against the future day it may (will?) need to be acted upon.
Clearly, beginning a takeoff roll with the taildolly attached is an
avoidable
mistake...even if in a very few designs it may be self-correcting (e.g.
G-102).
Bob W

A real risk also, and I say this without speculation in this case, is for
some really helpful person to start screaming right away on the radio
about the tail dolly. In a situation like this, it is FAR better to let
the pilot get high enough to terminate the tow reasonably, than panic him
into a low premature dangerous release. This also permits him to organize
his landing allowing for the almost inevitable spin around the wheel groud
loop.
UH

My real simple way to keep the dolly from being missed;

If I didn't remove it myself, or see a ground person carry it away, I
always ask the wing runner "Is the tail dolly removed?", before I
close the canopy.

On Jun 19, 5:07*pm, FreeFlight107 wrote:
My real simple way to keep the dolly from being missed;

If I didn't remove it myself, or see a ground person carry it away, I
always ask the wing runner "Is the tail dolly removed?", before I
close the canopy.

My pretakeoff checklist

Altimeter (check all instruments)
Belts
Canopy (push up and really check. Guess how I know to do that)
Controls
Cable
wind Direction (plan for wind)
Dive Brakes (check flap setting at this time)
Tail Dolly (Do I really remember removing it? If not ask wing runner
to check)
Trim
Traffic (did wing runner look?)
Emergency plan

Though dolly usually is not a big cg issue, the combination of dolly
and lightweight passengers in the front seat could be.

There is an element of a good safety culture which involves a team.
Train the wing runners to visually check the glider over incluing a
pilots dive brakes and tail dolly when approaching the glider and
before leveling the wings. A simple word to the pilot just after
hooking up, dive brakes and dolly check can save tha day. Same with
noticing that low tire on the tug or a new oil slick on the fuselage.
A heads up wing runner can save they day but they need to be trained
to do this kind of thing in a culture that permits it.

Many years ago I moved wiggled the elavator of a friends ASW-20, now I
do not toch other peoples gliders as a rule, but in this case it was
disconnected - he was strapped in and next to launch on the grid. Now
that was an interesting conversation.

John Seaborn
A8

On Jun 19, 4:13*pm, Alpha Eight wrote:
There is an element of a good safety culture which involves a team.
Train the wing runners to visually check the glider over incluing a
pilots dive brakes and tail dolly when approaching the glider and
before leveling the wings. A simple word to the pilot just after
hooking up, dive brakes and dolly check can save tha day. Same with
noticing that low tire on the tug or a new oil slick on the fuselage.
A heads up wing runner can save they day but they need to be trained
to do this kind of thing in a culture that permits it.

Many years ago I moved wiggled the elavator of a friends ASW-20, now I
do not toch other peoples gliders as a rule, but in this case it was
disconnected - *he was strapped in and next to launch on the grid. Now
that was an interesting conversation.

John Seaborn
A8

Tail dollies and wing wheels, once removed are placed to the side,
forward of the wing tip where the pilot can see it, but far enough
away that the wing runner will not trip over it. Many will call out
loud to the pilot, "TAIL DOLLY REMOVED!" and then hold it up for the
pilot to see and wait form an acknowledgement. Yes, this is at the
risk of interrupting the pilots checklist. Others simply place it
where it can be seen and they tell the wing runner, then quietly
remove it from the launch line (side of the runway) after the glider
is gone.

I've seen a Janus C fly and land safely with a tail dolly. I also like
the "fall away" design of the Grob 104. Listening to the Grob 104 tail
dolly slide down a paved runway gets your attention.

Condolences to the family with this tragic event.
T

Tail dollies and wing wheels, once removed are placed to the side,
forward of the wing tip where the pilot can see it, but far enough
away that the wing runner will not trip over it.

YES! This is the way to do it. When the pilot gets to "Dolly" on the
checklist, a quick look to the side confirms it is off. It helps if
your dolly is a unique color not to be confused with another.