Self-launch v Sustainer

Retired now and looking to purchase a motorized glider; weighing the pros and cons of self-launchers v sustainers. Two-placer is a priority, as I would like to take my wife. Single place acceptable as long as I can keep her happy sightseeing. We plan on extensive travelling, some to both established and unestablished (i.e., w/o tugs avail) soaring areas (esp. ridge/mountain/wave). Is the weight penalty the chief difference? Engine reliability? Maintenance? Minimum 18m? Some of you may recommend getting some first-hand experience at a commercial operation; where would that be?

Any feedback appreciated, even if just to eliminate models to stay away from.
Mike

I've flown a few: you need to decide whether you want your
self-launcher to actually go anywhere under power rather than
just struggle up to launch height. If you additionally want it to
perform as a modern glider you just need a Stemme S10 and
deep pockets.

If you never want to glide up wind then a SuperFalke might
suit, but they are slow, uncomfortable and have poor
performance by modern standards.

If you want to motor about most of the time (i.e. when there
are no 10+knot thermals) then Grob 109; Dimona etc would
suit; both a comfortable and able cruisers, they do glide but
sailplanes they are not!

If just a self launch (and you are willing to put up with possibly
unreliable two strokes) then: -

Nimbus 3DM (doesn't go round corners easily)
Nimbus 4DM (an amazing bit of kit; a few have suffered wing
structural failures; also doesn't go round corners readily)
DG500M (competent, getting on in years, not as nice to fly as
a Duo).

Turbos: Plenty of choices: Duo Discus; DG1000; Arcus, Nimbus
3DT/4DT; Arcus E. I've never flown any of them but the
standard Duo is a delight. Doubtless some one will be along
soon to extol the virtues of Turbos.

On Sat, 29 Oct 2016 21:11:26 +0000, Dave Walsh
wrote:


If just a self launch (and you are willing to put up with possibly
unreliable two strokes) then: -

Nimbus 3DM (doesn't go round corners easily)
Nimbus 4DM (an amazing bit of kit; a few have suffered wing
structural failures; also doesn't go round corners readily)
DG500M (competent, getting on in years, not as nice to fly as
a Duo).

.... not mention the nicest self launchers with the best engine systems
out the
ASH-25 Mi, its successot ASH-30 Mi and the 20m ASG-32 Mi.

Al open class gliders feel as if they "don't go around corners
easily", but that's not true and simply a question of experience.



Turbos: Plenty of choices: Duo Discus; DG1000; Arcus, Nimbus
3DT/4DT; Arcus E. I've never flown any of them but the
standard Duo is a delight. Doubtless some one will be along
soon to extol the virtues of Turbos.

I've flown all of them - all are nice.

Main problem of all open class gliders is the assembly which takes
considerable experience, time and sometimes simply a lot of strength.

Double seaters are a little better, but still heavy and, compared to
any single seater, cumbersome to assemble. One needs to think twice
about such a glider.

Some interesting posts; but if there were a simple answer to
the original question then we'd all be flying it.

The Stemme S10, Arcus variants and the Pipistrel Taurus are
wildly different animals: it's hard to imagine a particular pilot
putting those 3 onto their "short list"!
Only the Stemme has any useful range. The Taurus with two
well built pilots on board will always be bottom of the
thermal. Scratching in weak hill lift in the Stemme is hard
work; 23m with fuel in the wings is just not enjoyable.
By all accounts the Arcus variants (excepting the Arcus E)
are a delight.
My view is that it's hard to accept inferior performance,
especially when you're paying for it. Anyone who has
sampled Nimbus 4, Arcus, Duo performance in the
mountains is not going to want to scratch around in a
Taurus.
I am not knocking the Taurus, it has good take off
performance and in Europe falls into the "Ultralight" category
so enormous advantages in cost, maintenance and licensing
areas. It also has a reliable Rotax engine, another huge plus.
By all accounts it is very nice to fly.

If I were buying a Stemme I'd actively look for the earlier
Limbach engined version; sure the power performance of the
VT is better but not needed unless "hot and high" is always
on the agenda. Some might argue that the earlier version
was more reliable?

As self launch single seaters get a mention in earlier posts
here's my two Euros worth: the ASH26E (and other Wankel
engined machines) are capable of prolonged straight and
level flight to "get you home". All the rest, powered by two
cylinder two strokes, (DG800, Ventus CM etc) require "climb
and glide"......
Note the Wankel engine has its own issues. A prospective
purchaser should join the various "User Groups": LOTS of
issues with Wankel, Solo and Rotax engines are highlighted
there.

On Saturday, October 29, 2016 at 2:17:47 PM UTC-6, Duster wrote:
Retired now and looking to purchase a motorized glider; weighing the pros and cons of self-launchers v sustainers. Two-placer is a priority, as I would like to take my wife. Single place acceptable as long as I can keep her happy sightseeing. We plan on extensive travelling, some to both established and unestablished (i.e., w/o tugs avail) soaring areas (esp. ridge/mountain/wave). Is the weight penalty the chief difference? Engine reliability? Maintenance? Minimum 18m? Some of you may recommend getting some first-hand experience at a commercial operation; where would that be?

Any feedback appreciated, even if just to eliminate models to stay away from.
Mike

Mike,
Another option to consider is FES equipped gliders. You have the choice of having an electric sustainer in gliders such as the: LAK-17B FES, Ventus 2, the new Ventus and the HPH 304eS. Then there are electric, FES equipped, self-launchers such as the Silent 2 Electro and miniLAK FES. More info can be found he http://www.front-electric-sustainer.com/

Finally down the road we are expecting to see the GP 14E Velo and GP 15E Jeta become available. They are both electric self-launchers. More info can be found he http://www.gpgliders.com/

Please be aware that all of these ships are single seaters.

Good luck in the hunt!
Renny

Stemme S10-VT, two seats, side by side, 23 meter span
Stemme S12-VT, two seats, side by side, 25 meter span

I absolutely love my S10-VT!

On 10/29/2016 2:17 PM, Duster wrote:
Retired now and looking to purchase a motorized glider; weighing the pros and cons of self-launchers v sustainers. Two-placer is a priority, as I would like to take my wife. Single place acceptable as long as I can keep her happy sightseeing. We plan on extensive travelling, some to both established and unestablished (i.e., w/o tugs avail) soaring areas (esp. ridge/mountain/wave). Is the weight penalty the chief difference? Engine reliability? Maintenance? Minimum 18m? Some of you may recommend getting some first-hand experience at a commercial operation; where would that be?

Any feedback appreciated, even if just to eliminate models to stay away from.
Mike

--
Dan, 5J

If you have not gone soaring with the wife already, I think it prudent to do that a few times first. Soaring, turning in thermals, rotor turbulence etc, is much easier on the pilot than the passenger. Some passengers adapt easily . . . I had to ask my wife's permission to turn my previous Stemme in a thermal :c), she only flew in it twice.

The point being, of course, is you don't want a big 2-place so you can go fly solo! Single place ships are like a sports car in comparison to a sedan! Generally more nimble, easier to rig and trailer, less expensive (well some are anyway), and opting for a single place means a lot more choices.

While I owned a Stemme S10-VT and an ASH26E at the same time for a couple of years, the Stemme was gathering cobwebs, though it truly is superb 2 place in terms of capability, the 26E fairly dances with the sky.

bumper

Not so much to disagree with Bumper, but...

First powered flight with my wife was all white knuckles and, "Get me on
the ground now!"

First glider flight was by aero tow in a borrowed DG-500m-22 with a low
release and a bunch of thermalling and, "Get me on the ground now!"

Second glider flight, also aero tow to higher altitude, followed by
gentle dolphin flight yielded, "You're in lift!" and "You're in sink!"
and, after about 45 minutes, "OK, we can go down now."

Later she suggested we buy a 2-seater so she could learn to fly. We
bought a Pipistrel Sinus and, though not a CFI, I've been doing this a
long time, so I started her with straight and level. Then turns to
headings, actually turns to line up on a road, then turns around a
point. After some of this she tried slow flight, straight and turning,
then some thermalling, finally stalls and after she got competent with
these things, I had her fly traffic patterns to short final. She had so
much fun that she started taking lessons at Sundance Aviation in
Moriarty with me as her tow pilot. She got to the point of solo but
decided that she did not want to be a licensed pilot and dropped out.

She still wanted to fly but our Sinus didn't have the soaring
capabilities that I wanted so I sold my LAK-17a, placed the Sinus on the
market, and bought the Stemme. She loved the first flight and now we're
at the point where she does half the flying, though I do the takeoffs
and landings. She's become quite good at thermalling and picking a line
along lift streets to the point that I can kick back and just enjoy the
scenery. It's absolutely wonderful to be able to share this experience
with someone so close to you!

But I have to agree with Bumper about the differences in handling
between the sports car and the bus but, after 200+ hours in it (so far
this year!) I've become quite comfortable with its handling - you just
have to adapt to its quirks. And finally, the Stemme is a large expense
if you only fly it solo.

Dan

On 10/30/2016 12:29 AM, bumper wrote:
If you have not gone soaring with the wife already, I think it prudent to do that a few times first. Soaring, turning in thermals, rotor turbulence etc, is much easier on the pilot than the passenger. Some passengers adapt easily . . . I had to ask my wife's permission to turn my previous Stemme in a thermal :c), she only flew in it twice.

The point being, of course, is you don't want a big 2-place so you can go fly solo! Single place ships are like a sports car in comparison to a sedan! Generally more nimble, easier to rig and trailer, less expensive (well some are anyway), and opting for a single place means a lot more choices.

While I owned a Stemme S10-VT and an ASH26E at the same time for a couple of years, the Stemme was gathering cobwebs, though it truly is superb 2 place in terms of capability, the 26E fairly dances with the sky.

bumper

--
Dan, 5J

On Saturday, October 29, 2016 at 4:17:47 PM UTC-4, Duster wrote:
Retired now and looking to purchase a motorized glider; weighing the pros and cons of self-launchers v sustainers. Two-placer is a priority, as I would like to take my wife. Single place acceptable as long as I can keep her happy sightseeing. We plan on extensive travelling, some to both established and unestablished (i.e., w/o tugs avail) soaring areas (esp. ridge/mountain/wave). Is the weight penalty the chief difference? Engine reliability? Maintenance? Minimum 18m? Some of you may recommend getting some first-hand experience at a commercial operation; where would that be?

Any feedback appreciated, even if just to eliminate models to stay away from.
Mike

The 1st decision you need to make is whether you want a Touring Motorglider that you can use as an airplane to go on trips, or if you want a high performance glider that eliminates the need for a tow plane.

If you are looking for a touring motorglider, I strongly recommend you look at the Phoenix. It is an awesome plane with side by side seating, 100 hp Rotax engine, 110 knot cruise and 26 gallon fuel capacity, giving you 700 nm range.

With full fuel, you have the load capacity to carry 2 adults plus 100 lbs of baggage. In addition, my Phoenix has a full blown Dynon Skyview system with 2 axis autopilot, synthetic vision, Mode S transponder and 2020 compliant ADS-B IN & OUT. It also includes a ballistic recovery chute as a standard feature.

However, the best feature are the removable wing tips. Remove a single pin and the you can remove the 15 lb wing tip and reduce to wingspan from 49' to 35', so that the A/C will fit in a standard T-Hanger. The whole process takes less than a minute. Note: The Phoenix also includes short wing tips that you can use when you don't want to go soaring.

The soaring performance is similar to a K-21. My wife gets motion sickness, so she's not into soaring. I got a kitchen pass to buy the Phonenix so we can use it as an airplane for flying in the Caribbean. With a 30:1 glide ratio, at 10K ft, I have 60 mile final glide if the engine quits. From Florida to Grenada, the maximum distance between airports is 120 miles, so you are never at risk of getting your feet wet.

The only downside of the Phoenix is that it is a new design, so used A/C are not available. The lead time on getting a new one is ~ 2 years.

The Phoenix is also an option. It carries more fuel than the Sinus and
more luggage, but the advantages stop there. Equipped as Mike
described, you'll pay upwards of $200K for the Phoenix whereas you can
buy my Sinus for about $80K. I'll let you look up the performance
capabilities of each for yourself.

But for the same price as the Phoenix, you can get a Stemme S10-VT. My
wife and I flew ours from Moriarty, NM to Minden, NV with a rest stop at
Cedar City, UT each way. We cruised westbound at 16,500' MSL and
eastbound at 17,500' MSL realizing 140 KTAS and burning about 3.5
gallons per hour. We easily have 8 hours endurance and we have a
service ceiling of over 30,000' MSL! But who wants to spend much time
at that altitude in an unpressurized cockpit? The 75' wings fold up to
about 37'; my hangar has 42' wide doors and it's no problem rolling the
Stemme in and out. On the down side, the Stemme doesn't have much in
the way of baggage space but the new S12-VT has a fuselage baggage
compartment and, with basic instruments, you can get a new S12 for about
the price of a decently equipped used S10.

Not wanting to beat up the Phoenix, which looks to me to be a fine
aircraft and I almost bought one, myself, but check the wing loading on
the ship you finally decide to get. The Phoenix and the Sinus have very
low wing loading hence are much more affected by winds than the much
higher loaded (and performing) Stemme.

However you decide, I wish you the best of luck in getting what's right
for you

Dan

On 10/30/2016 6:38 AM, Mike Schumann wrote:
On Saturday, October 29, 2016 at 4:17:47 PM UTC-4, Duster wrote:
Retired now and looking to purchase a motorized glider; weighing the pros and cons of self-launchers v sustainers. Two-placer is a priority, as I would like to take my wife. Single place acceptable as long as I can keep her happy sightseeing. We plan on extensive travelling, some to both established and unestablished (i.e., w/o tugs avail) soaring areas (esp. ridge/mountain/wave). Is the weight penalty the chief difference? Engine reliability? Maintenance? Minimum 18m? Some of you may recommend getting some first-hand experience at a commercial operation; where would that be?

Any feedback appreciated, even if just to eliminate models to stay away from.
Mike
The 1st decision you need to make is whether you want a Touring Motorglider that you can use as an airplane to go on trips, or if you want a high performance glider that eliminates the need for a tow plane.

If you are looking for a touring motorglider, I strongly recommend you look at the Phoenix. It is an awesome plane with side by side seating, 100 hp Rotax engine, 110 knot cruise and 26 gallon fuel capacity, giving you 700 nm range.

With full fuel, you have the load capacity to carry 2 adults plus 100 lbs of baggage. In addition, my Phoenix has a full blown Dynon Skyview system with 2 axis autopilot, synthetic vision, Mode S transponder and 2020 compliant ADS-B IN & OUT. It also includes a ballistic recovery chute as a standard feature.

However, the best feature are the removable wing tips. Remove a single pin and the you can remove the 15 lb wing tip and reduce to wingspan from 49' to 35', so that the A/C will fit in a standard T-Hanger. The whole process takes less than a minute. Note: The Phoenix also includes short wing tips that you can use when you don't want to go soaring.

The soaring performance is similar to a K-21. My wife gets motion sickness, so she's not into soaring. I got a kitchen pass to buy the Phonenix so we can use it as an airplane for flying in the Caribbean. With a 30:1 glide ratio, at 10K ft, I have 60 mile final glide if the engine quits. From Florida to Grenada, the maximum distance between airports is 120 miles, so you are never at risk of getting your feet wet.

The only downside of the Phoenix is that it is a new design, so used A/C are not available. The lead time on getting a new one is ~ 2 years.

--
Dan, 5J