bush rules!

"Fred the Red Shirt" wrote in
message
om...
"Kevin Brooks" wrote in message
...
snip

... This was at a time
when the Marines were so hard pressed for pilots that
they
had to send men to Army and Air Force Flight Schools.

It seems to me that if the Marines had to send pilots to
the
Army and AF for training then the Marines must have had a
SURPLUS
of pilots (e.g. too many to for the USMC to train on its
own)
rather than being hard pressed for them.

DOH! we were loosing them at an extremely high rate. The
life expectancy for USMC Huey crews was about 3 months! I
have a quote from a current Marine fighter pilot "I'm a
rifleman and I fly a jet fighter!" The Marines developed
the concept of close air support in "banana Wars' of the
late 20's and early 30's!

Hmmm...one wonders why those same archaic fighters were
sent to Thailand and
Vietnam throughout the major part of the war, and as we
have already seen in
another thread, why a couple of them were lost in combat
operations.


If indeed they were archaic that does help to explain why
some
were lost in combat, does it not?

They flew anything that they could get off of the ground
down at the boneyard at Davis-Monthan Airbase outside of
Tucson, AZ.

We had 2 R4Ds at Danang in 1964-65 (C47 also known as DC3).
The seats were removed and they were used to ferry ARVN
troops and their families and all of their pigs and chickens
around. They were full of patches from bullet holes.

The Air Force flew WWII era Douglas A26/B26 Invaders up
until Feb 1964. They carried 6,000 bomb loads and had up to
16 .50 Cal MGs. Then there were the B57 Canberras which the
Aussies also flew.

The mainstay of the USAF close air support effort were the
old ex Navy/USMC propjob AD-6 and AD-7 Skyraiders renamed
A-1E through A-1J. The Marines retired the last Skyraider
squadron out of NAS Memphis in the early 60's. The Navy
still flew them off of carriers in the Tonkin Gulf until
late 1965???

And of course, the spooks had a slew of C-47 and C-23 cargo
haulers.
--
Chas. (Drop spamski to E-mail
me)

"Fred the Red Shirt" wrote in
message
om...
"Kevin Brooks" wrote in message
...
snip

... This was at a time
when the Marines were so hard pressed for pilots that
they
had to send men to Army and Air Force Flight Schools.

It seems to me that if the Marines had to send pilots to
the
Army and AF for training then the Marines must have had a
SURPLUS
of pilots (e.g. too many to for the USMC to train on its
own)
rather than being hard pressed for them.

DOH! we were loosing them at an extremely high rate. The
life expectancy for USMC Huey crews was about 3 months! I
have a quote from a current Marine fighter pilot "I'm a
riffleman and I fly a jet fighter!" The Marines developed
the concept of close air support in "banana Wars' of the
late 20's and early 30's!

Hmmm...one wonders why those same archaic fighters were
sent to Thailand and
Vietnam throughout the major part of the war, and as we
have already seen in
another thread, why a couple of them were lost in combat
operations.


If indeed they were archaic that does help to explain why
some
were lost in combat, does it not?

They flew anything that they could get off of the ground
down at the boneyard at Davis-Monthan Airbase outside of
Tucson, AZ.

We had 2 R4Ds at Danang in 1964-65 (C47 also known as DC3).
The seats were removed and they were used to ferry ARVN
troops and their families and all of their pigs and chickens
around. They were full of patches from bullet holes.

The Air Force flew WWII era Douglas A26/B26 Invaders up
until Feb 1964. They carried 6,000 bomb loads and had up to
16 .50 Cal MGs. Then there were the B57 Canberras which the
Aussies also flew.

The mainstay of the USAF close air support effort were the
old ex Navy/USMC propjob AD-6 and AD-7 Skyraiders renamed
A-1E through A-1J. The Marines retired the last Skyraider
squadron out of NAS Memphis in the early 60's. The Navy
still flew them off of carriers in the Tonkin Gulf until
late 1965???

And of course, the spooks had a slew of C-47 and C-23 cargo
haulers.
--
Chas. (Drop spamski to E-mail
me)

"* * Chas" wrote in message
om...

We had 2 R4Ds at Danang in 1964-65 (C47 also known as DC3).


There were no R4Ds in 1964-65, and it was C-47 and DC-3.



The Air Force flew WWII era Douglas A26/B26 Invaders up
until Feb 1964. They carried 6,000 bomb loads and had up to
16 .50 Cal MGs. Then there were the B57 Canberras which the
Aussies also flew.


It's A-26, B-26, and B-57, and the WWII era B-26 was out of the inventory
shortly after WWII ended.



And of course, the spooks had a slew of C-47 and C-23 cargo
haulers.


C-123.

"* * Chas" wrote in message
om...

"Fred the Red Shirt" wrote in
message
om...
"Kevin Brooks" wrote in message
...
snip

... This was at a time
when the Marines were so hard pressed for pilots that
they
had to send men to Army and Air Force Flight Schools.

It seems to me that if the Marines had to send pilots to
the
Army and AF for training then the Marines must have had a
SURPLUS
of pilots (e.g. too many to for the USMC to train on its
own)
rather than being hard pressed for them.

DOH! we were loosing them at an extremely high rate.

So was the Army, and the USAF, and the USN. In fact, IIRC the USMC aircrew
casualty rate was below all of the above?

The
life expectancy for USMC Huey crews was about 3 months! I
have a quote from a current Marine fighter pilot "I'm a
riffleman and I fly a jet fighter!" The Marines developed
the concept of close air support in "banana Wars' of the
late 20's and early 30's!

And that is applicable how...?


Hmmm...one wonders why those same archaic fighters were
sent to Thailand and
Vietnam throughout the major part of the war, and as we
have already seen in
another thread, why a couple of them were lost in combat
operations.


If indeed they were archaic that does help to explain why
some
were lost in combat, does it not?

They flew anything that they could get off of the ground
down at the boneyard at Davis-Monthan Airbase outside of
Tucson, AZ.

Not really.


We had 2 R4Ds at Danang in 1964-65 (C47 also known as DC3).
The seats were removed and they were used to ferry ARVN
troops and their families and all of their pigs and chickens
around. They were full of patches from bullet holes.

The C-47 family continues in service in some air forces to this day; its use
during Vietnam was while it was a relative *youngster*!


The Air Force flew WWII era Douglas A26/B26 Invaders up
until Feb 1964. They carried 6,000 bomb loads and had up to
16 .50 Cal MGs.

Those "On Mark" B-26's were used for a number of reasons, not because they
were the only thing available.

Then there were the B57 Canberras which the
Aussies also flew.

Which were not that old at the time (the last EB-57 did not exit service
until after 1980), and BTW, they were not the same aircraft. The USAF flew
the Martin built B-57, with a fair number of mods; the Aussies flew the
original BAC Canberra.


The mainstay of the USAF close air support effort were the
old ex Navy/USMC propjob AD-6 and AD-7 Skyraiders renamed
A-1E through A-1J.

No, they were not. The A-1's did fly CAS, and a lot more RESCAP, but they
were not the USAF's "mainstay". There were more F-100's in country than
A-1's.

The Marines retired the last Skyraider
squadron out of NAS Memphis in the early 60's. The Navy
still flew them off of carriers in the Tonkin Gulf until
late 1965???

Good airplane--so your point would have been?


And of course, the spooks had a slew of C-47 and C-23 cargo
haulers.

That would presumably be C-123, and they were also used by the USAF side,
alongside the later C-130's. And the last C-123K's did not leave USAF
service until the early eighties.

Brooks

--
Chas. (Drop spamski to E-mail
me)

"Fred the Red Shirt" wrote in
message
om...
"Kevin Brooks" wrote in message
...
snip

... This was at a time
when the Marines were so hard pressed for pilots that
they
had to send men to Army and Air Force Flight Schools.

It seems to me that if the Marines had to send pilots to
the
Army and AF for training then the Marines must have had a
SURPLUS
of pilots (e.g. too many to for the USMC to train on its
own)
rather than being hard pressed for them.

DOH! we were loosing them at an extremely high rate. The
life expectancy for USMC Huey crews was about 3 months! I
have a quote from a current Marine fighter pilot "I'm a
riffleman and I fly a jet fighter!" The Marines develoved
the concept of close air support in "bannana Wars' of the
late 20's and early 30's!

Hmmm...one wonders why those same archaic fighters were
sent to Thailand and
Vietnam throughout the major part of the war, and as we
have already seen in
another thread, why a couple of them were lost in combat
operations.


If indeed they were archaic that does help to explain why
some
were lost in combat, does it not?

They flew anything that they could get off of the ground
down at the boneyard at Davis-Monthan Airbase outside of
Tucson, AZ.

We had 2 R4Ds at Danang in 1964-65 (C47 also known as DC3).
The seats were removed and they were used to ferry ARVN
troops and their families and all of their pigs and chickens
around. They were full of patches from bullet holes.

The Air Force flew WWII era Douglas A26/B26 Invaders up
until Feb 1964. They carried 6,000 bomb loads and had up to
16 .50 Cal MGs. Then there were the B57 Canberras which the
Aussies also flew.

The mainstay of the USAF close air support effort were the
old ex Navy/USMC propjob AD-6 and AD-7 Skyraiders renamed
A-1E through A-1J. The Marines retired the last Skyraider
squadron out of NAS Memphis in the early 60's. The Navy
still flew them off of carriers in the Tonkin Gulf until
late 1965???

And of course, the spooks had a slew of C-47 and C-23 cargo
haulers.
--
Chas. (Drop spamski to E-mail
me)

Fred, I didn't know you stuttered. (^-^)))

George Z.

* * Chas wrote:
"Fred the Red Shirt" wrote in
message
om...
"Kevin Brooks" wrote in message
...
snip

... This was at a time
when the Marines were so hard pressed for pilots that they
had to send men to Army and Air Force Flight Schools.

It seems to me that if the Marines had to send pilots to the
Army and AF for training then the Marines must have had a SURPLUS
of pilots (e.g. too many to for the USMC to train on its own)
rather than being hard pressed for them.

DOH! we were loosing them at an extremely high rate. The
life expectancy for USMC Huey crews was about 3 months! I
have a quote from a current Marine fighter pilot "I'm a
riffleman and I fly a jet fighter!" The Marines develoved
the concept of close air support in "bannana Wars' of the
late 20's and early 30's!

Hmmm...one wonders why those same archaic fighters were sent to Thailand and
Vietnam throughout the major part of the war, and as we have already seen in
another thread, why a couple of them were lost in combat operations.


If indeed they were archaic that does help to explain why some
were lost in combat, does it not?

They flew anything that they could get off of the ground
down at the boneyard at Davis-Monthan Airbase outside of
Tucson, AZ.

We had 2 R4Ds at Danang in 1964-65 (C47 also known as DC3).
The seats were removed and they were used to ferry ARVN
troops and their families and all of their pigs and chickens
around. They were full of patches from bullet holes.

The Air Force flew WWII era Douglas A26/B26 Invaders up
until Feb 1964. They carried 6,000 bomb loads and had up to
16 .50 Cal MGs. Then there were the B57 Canberras which the
Aussies also flew.

The mainstay of the USAF close air support effort were the
old ex Navy/USMC propjob AD-6 and AD-7 Skyraiders renamed
A-1E through A-1J. The Marines retired the last Skyraider
squadron out of NAS Memphis in the early 60's. The Navy
still flew them off of carriers in the Tonkin Gulf until
late 1965???

And of course, the spooks had a slew of C-47 and C-23 cargo
haulers.

From: "* * Chas"

snip

DOH! we were loosing them at an extremely high rate.

It's spelled "losing."

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

The bottom line is this:

During the Vietnam era it wasn't too difficult for the draft
age sons of the wealthy and/or politically well placed to
find ways of avoiding the posibility of going to Vietnam or
in many cases avoiding military service altogether!

That said, I think at the time, most of the reluctance to
serve in the military was more of an issue of facing the
regementation, dicipline and the loss of personal freedoms
encountered in every day military life rather than the fear
of bodily harm from combat in Vietnam.

"DO YOU MISS YOUR MOMMY!"

"WHAT'S MARYJANE ROTTENCROTCH DOING WHILE YOU'RE AWAY
MAGGOT!"

The prospect of Boot Camp and military service was ( and
probably still is) just plain scary!

Before 1965, joining the service was a way out of poverty
for many young men and was generally looked upon with
respect. I joined the service right out of high school
because I wanted adventure plus I felt that I was serving my
country. For me it was a way to travel and see the world.

One side effect of the Draft and Vietnam war in the 1960s
was the number of young men who went to college or got
married and had children just to get a Draft Deferment.

One friend went to school from 1962 until 1969. He got
married and had 2 kids. When he finally graduated, he got
drafted and spent a year in 'Nam as a grunt.

Things changed after 1965. There were many young men who
enlisted the same day they received a notice from their
Draft Board. They tried to get into the Air Force or Navy
(or reserves) thinking that a 4 year enlistment was better
than 2 years in the Army as a draftee.

I volunteered, that was my choice and like most people who
served their country whether they got drafted or enlisted, I
was not a hero nor did I do anything special. I just did my
duty. Like most, I was "Shot at and missed, **** at and
hit"!

I never really faulted most people for trying to avoid
military service. However I never respected poor little rich
kids who landed cushy positions in the reserves or received
some kind of deferement because mommy and daddy didn't want
to see little Jr. come home in a box. What about all of the
thousands of poorer kids who had no choice!

Yes, Bill Clinton avoided getting drafted but so did most of
the young men who attended college in the late 60s including
many prominent members of George Ws entourage especially
Cheney who "had other things to do"!

Whether we ever find the truth about W's service record
(along with his pre-1995 Texas driver's license record) will
be a subject for debate.

One thing that rubs me wrong is that George W got an early
discharge from the Texas ANG so that he could attend
graduate school. Now isn't that special!

I was due to be discharged in October, 1965. I was trying to
"get a Cut", an early discharge to attend school myself. On
August 20, 1965, ALL members of the US Navy and Marines got
an involuntary 4 month extention at the convience of the
government tagged on to their enlistment. I don't remember
how long the extention was in effect but it sure messed up
my plans. My dad wasn't a congressman.

A more important issue that affects all of is is that we
have gotten bogged down in a quagmire in Iraq, led there by
a bunch of Chicken Hawks who never heard a shot fired in
anger!