The Swearingen-TEB incident: control issues with twins

"George Patterson" wrote

Naw ... They just carried *really big* lunch boxes. :-)

Could be. When asked about why such a big lunchbox, they could reply that
it is a five course meal for 100. g
--
Jim in NC

"Montblack" wrote

OT - Speaking of Aero Commanders, I saw the Pella Windows corporate jet a
few weeks ago at the Pella, Iowa airport open house. Talked with the crew.
It's an Aero Commander jet. Israeli company converts them - see link.

That may be the strangest conversion I have ever seen! But I like it!

I sure do wonder how they got the CG in the right place. Do you think they
moved the wing back?
--
Jim in NC

"Corky Scott" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 2 Jun 2005 06:59:39 -0700, "Matt Barrow"
wrote:

The story of the man begins with Ted Smith, and the dream starts when,
as
project engineer at the Douglas Aircraft Company during the Second World
War, Smith envisioned the day when peace would come and the airplane
would
fill its promise of usefulness to man as a transportation vehicle.

The B-26 Marauder was designed by the Martin Company, not Douglas.
Douglas designed the "A"-26 Invader, which replaced the B-26 by the
end of the war.

Two VERY different airplanes from two different (and competing)
aircraft companies.


My mistake!! (mea culpa)

Actually, Ted Smith designed the A-20 Havoc. The similarities with the
AeroCommander are quite apparent:

http://www.aerofiles.com/doug-a20a.jpg

http://www.twincommander.com/

Matt Barrow wrote:
Actually, Ted Smith designed the A-20 Havoc. The similarities with the
AeroCommander are quite apparent:

http://www.aerofiles.com/doug-a20a.jpg


You can sure see it in the empennage.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN

VE

On Thu, 2 Jun 2005 09:58:27 -0500, "Montblack"
wrote:

OT - Speaking of Aero Commanders, I saw the Pella Windows corporate jet a
few weeks ago at the Pella, Iowa airport open house. Talked with the crew.
It's an Aero Commander jet. Israeli company converts them - see link.

http://tinyurl.com/a7duk
Israel IAI-1124A Westwind

Dude, I'm pretty sure the Jet Commander was a production aircraft
(early 60's?) that IAI ended up purchasing and building on their own.
Am also thinking the original Jet Commander came with J85/CJ610's.
Been years since I've walked by one on the ramp.

Have no idea when they turned into Westwind's, but looking at the
link/picture you posted, that airplane looks like it might have
TFE731's on it to me. Don't know if that has any relevance to the
"Westwind" moniker or not.

My old Type Certificate CD won't run anymore, or I'd try and look it
up...

TC

On Fri, 03 Jun 2005 00:07:29 GMT, wrote in
::

My old Type Certificate CD won't run anymore, or I'd try and look it
up...

You might try he
http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory...e?OpenFrameSet

Mike

Did you see that Japan is phasing the MU-2 out of their Defense Force?
They lost another one. Makes 4 lost out of 20 they started with (20%
crash rate).

Big John
`````````````````````````````````````````````````` `````````````````````````````````````````````````` ``````````````

On Thu, 02 Jun 2005 03:10:28 GMT, "Mike Rapoport"
wrote:


"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
.. .


On Wed, 01 Jun 2005 18:22:00 GMT, "Mike Rapoport"
wrote in
t::

Any twin can be banked into the dead engine and controlled, it is only a
matter of airspeed.

At low altitude, that becomes problematic.

Airspeed and altitude are really the same thing in this arena...energy.
Low, slow and in a high drag configuration is what you don't want.


If memory serves, the Aerostar has only one hydraulic
pump and won't climb with the gear down.

Have you any idea which engine powers the hydraulic pump?


I don't remember but I think that it is mentioned in the Aerostar section of
the Used Aircraft Guide which, unfortunately, is not at hand.

Basically, as Michael points out there are conditions where any twin can
climb on one engine and conditions where they can't (this isn't really true
for Part 25 certified twins) and different airplanes have different
"weaknesses". Some have minimial power, some can't climb with the gear
down, some with gear and flaps. The reason for all this is that
manufacturers keep increasing the gross weight until performance is
marginal. MU-2 weak points are slow gear retraction, big flaps and a wide
gap between Vr and Vyse (about 50kts).

Mike
MU-2.

wrote

Dude, I'm pretty sure the Jet Commander was a production aircraft
(early 60's?) that IAI ended up purchasing and building on their own.
Am also thinking the original Jet Commander came with J85/CJ610's.
Been years since I've walked by one on the ramp.

Have no idea when they turned into Westwind's, but looking at the
link/picture you posted, that airplane looks like it might have
TFE731's on it to me. Don't know if that has any relevance to the
"Westwind" moniker or not.

From The Illustrated Encyclopedia of Commercial Aircraft, Bill Gunston.

ISRAEL Aircraft Industries' Westwind business jet may be traced back to
the American Aero Commander Model 1121 Jet Commander which was designed
by Ted Smith and first flew in January 1963. When Aero Commander merged
with North American Rockwell they were obliged to sell off the Jet
Commander to avoid conflict with US antitrust laws (the parent company
was already marketing the Sabreliner business jet).
Israel Aircraft Industries bought the entire jet Commander programme and
all production tooling and sales rights, and after refining the design
returned it to the market as the 1123 Commodore Jet, later renamed the
1123 Westwind.
The Westwind had a lengthened fuselage, more powerful engines and
tiptanks. The longer fuselage could accommodate up to ten passengers.
The first Israel-built Westwind 1123 flew on September 28, 1970 and 36
had been delivered when production ceased in mid 1976 in favour of the
Model 1124 which was re-engined with fuel-efficient Garrett-AiRcsearch
TFE73I turbofans in place of the pure turbojets used in all previous
models.
The first Model 1124 Westwind flew on July 21, 1975 since when production
of the aircraft, known as Westwind I, has been running at three to four
per month to meet heavy demand from United States business operators. The
pressurized cabin can accommodate up to ten passengers with a flight crew
of two. The interior arrangement can be altered to suit customer
requirements. The cabin is heated, ventilated and airconditioned. More
than 90 have been delivered.
A further civil version called Westwind II is currently under development
in Israel featuring drag-reducing Whitcomb winglets mounted atop the
aircraft's tiptanks, which are expected to improve cruise performance by
some 70km/h (43mph) and range by 560km (348 miles).

Bob Moore

On Fri, 03 Jun 2005 00:54:22 GMT, Larry Dighera
wrote:

On Fri, 03 Jun 2005 00:07:29 GMT, wrote in
::

My old Type Certificate CD won't run anymore, or I'd try and look it
up...

You might try he
http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory...e?OpenFrameSet

Thanks, funky interface.

Reading through it, the 1121 looks like a Jet Commander to my
recollection, in the notes it mentions Aero Commander/North American
Rockwell. The 1121B is the last one that specifically mentions AC,
1123 and after look like IAI products, still doesn't tell me where the
Westwind part comes into play.

Heh, looks like the 1124 does have 731's on it.

http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgMakeModel.nsf/0/ad46abf7e926a72f8525672700701087/$FILE/ATT1CHYM/A2SW.pdf

DOH (slaps forehead) - forgot google is my friend:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&l...&btnG=Searc h

http://www.airliners.net/info/stats.main?id=247

Sorry, been a long week.

TC

"Big John" wrote in message
...
Mike

Did you see that Japan is phasing the MU-2 out of their Defense Force?
They lost another one. Makes 4 lost out of 20 they started with (20%
crash rate).

Big John
`````````````````````````````````````````````````` `````````````````````````````````````````````````` ``````````````

I didn't see that but I'm sure that if they flew the airplane another 40yrs
that they would lose some more...

..
Mike
MU-2