Straight deck ops

Prior to Flight Training in '53, I had been a black shoe OOD in USS Block
Island (CVE-106) and had become used to flight ops for a couple of years
involving the AF-2S and AF-2W, each of which had to wiggle and crab even to
taxi by the island they were so big - probably the largest carrier aircraft
in use in those days on the narrowest, shortest CVE decks. As a result,
bringing an SNJ aboard the CVL USS Monterrey seemed like having deck to
spare, but how soon we forget...looking at the video brings it all back.

"qui si parla Campagnolo" wrote in message
ups.com...

Greasy Rider wrote:
On 8 Jan 2007 05:48:43 -0800, "qui si parla Campagnolo"
postulated :

I thought the F-14 was tough to bring aboard. Corsair pilots, very
impressed. Gotta love paddles in shorts too, getting their tan set for
liberty.

It was my understanding that the Corsair was not an ideal aircraft for
carrier ops because of the limited forward visibility and most were
transferred over the Marines.

All true but it was flown around the boat by a few really good
avaitors, had to be to be able to do it.

A gentleman I know who few Corsairs in the Pacific war said they considered
the Japanese "a minor irritation", compared to the task of getting back
aboard the carrier.

Bob McKellar

Corsairs had two probs: Pilot vis over the nose in the early aircraft and
strut bounce. Both were solved after the war (the first only to a degree)
and the aircraft was no more challenging than its contemporaries. Night
work was another matter and when they tried to fly the relatively
underpowered jets of the late forties and early fifties in the same manner,
problems arose. Most Korean war losses were operational, not combat.

Personally, I found the Turkey quite nice around the back end of the boat.
It took flying, but with an approach speed about 10% less than the Phantom
and gobs of lift (and fuel), it was hard to hurt yourself in it. By
comparison, the Phantom was supremely stable and had great response to
thrust, but a few hit the ramp now and then. The F-8 would enact punitive
measures for just a moment's hesitation ... highest mishap rate in the
modern (angled deck, OLS) era.

A comment made at one of the last "Last Crusader Balls:" "You know
Lightning, we're looking at a lot of memorial services that never happened."

R / John

"Bob McKellar" wrote in message
...

"qui si parla Campagnolo" wrote in message
ups.com...

Greasy Rider wrote:
On 8 Jan 2007 05:48:43 -0800, "qui si parla Campagnolo"
postulated :

I thought the F-14 was tough to bring aboard. Corsair pilots, very
impressed. Gotta love paddles in shorts too, getting their tan set for
liberty.

It was my understanding that the Corsair was not an ideal aircraft for
carrier ops because of the limited forward visibility and most were
transferred over the Marines.

All true but it was flown around the boat by a few really good
avaitors, had to be to be able to do it.

A gentleman I know who few Corsairs in the Pacific war said they
considered the Japanese "a minor irritation", compared to the task of
getting back aboard the carrier.

Bob McKellar

In August, 1962, Forrestal joined Sixth Fleet and soon we had NATO ops
with Enterprise (this was when John McCain wiped his AD/A-1 oil cooler
on trees or a power line in Spain or Portugal and fouled Enterprise's
flight deck) and I am thinking, Ark Royal, Hermes, and Foch and/or
Clemenceau. We had F4H-2/F-4B's (VF-74 Bedevilers) on their first combat
cruise, and the F-4B's on CAP were soon jumped by French Corsairs, or
vv. the CAP was vectored down low to intercept incoming Corsairs. They
met in the vicinity of Forrestal, and everyone ran to the flight deck to
watch the Corsairs turning way inside, avoiding the Phantom II's which
skidded over the horizon. It was quite a show, the Corsairs could turn
literally on a dime, the Phantom's couldn't get near them. We had a good
number of Korean vet VF- and VA- senior types in Heavy Attack, they
really got excited seeing the Corsairs. Back in the ready room I nearly
got killed when I offered that I thought my Grandpappy flew them.

It was a memorable afternoon. We had cross deck operations with Ark
Royal and Hermes, some of our crewmen spent a few days on them - they
were amazed to see hammocks still in use. It was also when Long Beach
turned unnanounced across Forrestal's bow - even after hard right rudder
and all back emergency, our maintenance crews said men started running
aft on the flight deck, you could have spit down on Long Beach's stern
as she passed just ahead.
Joel McEachen VAH-5


qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:
Greasy Rider wrote:

On 8 Jan 2007 05:48:43 -0800, "qui si parla Campagnolo"
postulated :

I thought the F-14 was tough to bring aboard. Corsair pilots, very
impressed. Gotta love paddles in shorts too, getting their tan set for
liberty.

It was my understanding that the Corsair was not an ideal aircraft for
carrier ops because of the limited forward visibility and most were
transferred over the Marines.

All true but it was flown around the boat by a few really good
aviators, had to be to be able to do it.

Never flew on/off the CVE Block Island but flew AFs on/off CVE's Siboney,
Kula Gulf, and Gilbert Islands. As I remember, the AF was advertised as the
largest single recip. engine A/C ever.

"Boomerang" wrote in message
...
Prior to Flight Training in '53, I had been a black shoe OOD in USS Block
Island (CVE-106) and had become used to flight ops for a couple of years
involving the AF-2S and AF-2W, each of which had to wiggle and crab even
to taxi by the island they were so big - probably the largest carrier
aircraft in use in those days on the narrowest, shortest CVE decks. As a
result, bringing an SNJ aboard the CVL USS Monterrey seemed like having
deck to spare, but how soon we forget...looking at the video brings it all
back.

Awfully tight squeeze on to one of the two centerline elevators (no
deck-edges), cable barriers, single centerline cat, 557 feet 1 inch roundown
to bow, what a ride!

It was my understanding that the Corsair was not an ideal aircraft for
carrier ops because of the limited forward visibility and most were
transferred over the Marines.

As a Marine I shouldn't repeat this, but just to show you how
fair-minded we Marines a

In _The Jolly Rogers_, Tom Blackburn, skipper of VF-17 during WW II,
tells how he insisted on getting F4Us, not F6Fs, for his squadron. It
became, IIRC, the highest-scoring USN squadron.

On one long flight, they had to land on a carrier ro refuel. Although
they hadn't done carrier ops for more than a year, every one of them
got a cut on the first pass.

So there were some pretty good F4U drivers in the Navy, too.

..... The Fleet Air Arm took on Corsairs as soon as it could get them and very
quickly evolved a curving approach to the deck which meant that forward visibility
was not a problem for landing ....

The USN was still using that approach when I CQed in 1950 and, AFAIK,
continued using it till the jets and the "ball" arrived.

vince norris

"vincent p. norris" wrote in message
...
I was too young for WW II but CQed in an SNJ aboard USS Wright off
Pensacola in 1950. Not very different from WW II conditions.

Even getting off the deck was a tough proposition, with the occasional
engine burp, cold cat shot, or defective bridle.

Cat shots were infrequent in WW II ops. Even Doolittle's B-25s took
off without benefit of a cat shot. Engines were wound up to full
revs before being released for take-off.

I once interviewed a guy who had been a Navy test pilot during WWII.......
He flew every plane in the Navy at the time and did quite a few landings
on
(I think) the USS Wright on Lake Michigan.

That's possible, but I think the two carriers used for CQ on Lake
Michigan were converted lake steamers. One, IIRC, was a side-wheeler.

Anyway, he said that landings were not as difficult as you would think,
because the stall speed of the planes was low and the carrier at speed
meant
that you approached the deck at less than 70 miles per hour in many cases.

I would agree, so far as the SNJ is oncerned. After field carrier
practice, a flight of six of us flew out to the boat. We had to get
six "cuts" to qualify. Every one of us, green beginners, got six cuts
for six passes. So it couldn't have been too hard.

Of course, we did it on a sunny day with relative calm seas, not at
night in a storm, with controls shot up.

vince norris

As someone who has a bit of time in the F4U and the F8F, I have nothing but
respect for the guys who could put the Corsair on the boat without breaking
their necks. Grumman, being the kind hearted souls they are, and having some
sympathy for the guys who had to see over the nose of their prop fighters,
were good enough to design the cowls with a downward slant so you could at
least see SOMETHING out there in front of you....like the LSO for example.
But I found the Corsair as blind as a bat out front. Of course I never put
one on the boat, but even handling it on the runway could be a chore. You
had two tiny areas at the lower corners of the windshield where you kept the
sides of the runway equalized at touchdown and roll out. I can only imagine
what it must have been like putting one of those things on the boat in the
middle of the night.......or even in daytime for that matter!!
Go Navy!!
Dudley Henriques

John Carrier wrote:
Corsairs had two probs: Pilot vis over the nose in the early aircraft and
strut bounce. Both were solved after the war (the first only to a degree)
and the aircraft was no more challenging than its contemporaries. Night
work was another matter and when they tried to fly the relatively
underpowered jets of the late forties and early fifties in the same manner,
problems arose. Most Korean war losses were operational, not combat.

Personally, I found the Turkey quite nice around the back end of the boat.
It took flying, but with an approach speed about 10% less than the Phantom
and gobs of lift (and fuel), it was hard to hurt yourself in it. By
comparison, the Phantom was supremely stable and had great response to
thrust, but a few hit the ramp now and then. The F-8 would enact punitive
measures for just a moment's hesitation ... highest mishap rate in the
modern (angled deck, OLS) era.

I think my disdain for the turkey stems from how tough of a time we had
keeping the things flying. It was pretty comfy around the boat, lots of
fuel, even carrying 1/1/1. BUT I really liked the throttle response of
the F-4, plus the very stable nose and, ya had only a pass or 2 before
you were off to the tanker..so you 'developed' a good boarding rate
early on.....

A comment made at one of the last "Last Crusader Balls:" "You know
Lightning, we're looking at a lot of memorial services that never happened."

R / John

"Bob McKellar" wrote in message
...

"qui si parla Campagnolo" wrote in message
ups.com...

Greasy Rider wrote:
On 8 Jan 2007 05:48:43 -0800, "qui si parla Campagnolo"
postulated :

I thought the F-14 was tough to bring aboard. Corsair pilots, very
impressed. Gotta love paddles in shorts too, getting their tan set for
liberty.

It was my understanding that the Corsair was not an ideal aircraft for
carrier ops because of the limited forward visibility and most were
transferred over the Marines.

All true but it was flown around the boat by a few really good
avaitors, had to be to be able to do it.

A gentleman I know who few Corsairs in the Pacific war said they
considered the Japanese "a minor irritation", compared to the task of
getting back aboard the carrier.

Bob McKellar