Gliding risk....

On Tuesday, November 5, 2019 at 1:11:24 AM UTC-5, 2G wrote:
On Monday, November 4, 2019 at 9:42:27 AM UTC-8, wrote:
On Monday, November 4, 2019 at 7:30:24 AM UTC-8, Glidergeek wrote:
"HOW CAN I BE SAFER AND MAKE BETTER DECISIONS?" Drink less booze don't smoke pot, and stay home on the couch! I forgot look both ways before you cross the street. Anything that is affected by gravity (and some things that aren't) has risk. Like gambling, only gamble what you're willing to loose.

I'll instead avoid the personal attack. I did not expect the thread to so quickly and thoroughly support Mr. Foster's idea...

This is one of the DUMBEST threads I have followed - if you want something even MORE DANGEROUS try wing suiting in Norway!

BTDT. Makes soaring really safe, for me. lolz.

With apologies for lack of context:
This is one of the DUMBEST threads I have followed

Not dumb. Thought provoking. Anyone who hasn't considered the risks of soaring is in denial.

I grew up hearing my father repeat the mantra that "the most dangerous part of soaring is driving to and from the airport." He was killed in a glider crash 15 years after I soloed. Six years later, my best friend died in another crash. I’ve known 16 other casualties, plus more I never met. Last Friday, I attended the wake of #18, a good pilot about my age who was careful and controlled.

I'm SO past the "he died doing what he loved" thing. It's probably true in many cases but the pilots are still dead, leaving families and friends. And if a missing man formation makes you feel better, great, but it does nothing to bring back someone you loved or treasured as a friend.

I also knew two guys who were killed in motorcycle crashes during this time (54 years), although I have no idea how many of my friends/acquaintances ride vs. fly. I recall only one person I met who was killed in a car crash. I think comparing the risks of different activities is useful. But obviously we're not all making decisions based on minimizing risk.

There are ways to reduce the risk even in competition, which I think is probably riskier than doing rides around the gliderport. Eight of "my" 18 died at contests (44%) with another five arguably practicing for it. All were experienced, mature, high-time pilots. Medical factors may have been a factor in at least four cases but often it’s tough to make that call, although sometimes we’re tempted because it makes us feel better about the genuine risks we incur.

The safest thing is not flying at all. I’ve considered that. I’ve been away from soaring three times for multi-year periods (unrelated to risk) and come back every time after considering the pro’s and con’s. I still love soaring but the risk is always there. I’ve never been cavalier about the danger but I’m probably more careful now than I was 50 years ago. I think our community addresses safety much better than in the past. But--I concede that if soaring were 100% risk free (a la Condor, which I enjoy), it wouldn’t be as compelling. Cognitive dissonance is a wonderful thing!

Chip Bearden
JB

On Tuesday, November 5, 2019 at 11:24:12 AM UTC-8, wrote:
With apologies for lack of context:
This is one of the DUMBEST threads I have followed

Not dumb. Thought provoking. Anyone who hasn't considered the risks of soaring is in denial...

All well said, Chip.

On Tuesday, November 5, 2019 at 2:24:12 PM UTC-5, wrote:
With apologies for lack of context:
This is one of the DUMBEST threads I have followed

Not dumb. Thought provoking. Anyone who hasn't considered the risks of soaring is in denial.

I grew up hearing my father repeat the mantra that "the most dangerous part of soaring is driving to and from the airport." He was killed in a glider crash 15 years after I soloed. Six years later, my best friend died in another crash. I’ve known 16 other casualties, plus more I never met. Last Friday, I attended the wake of #18, a good pilot about my age who was careful and controlled.

I'm SO past the "he died doing what he loved" thing. It's probably true in many cases but the pilots are still dead, leaving families and friends. And if a missing man formation makes you feel better, great, but it does nothing to bring back someone you loved or treasured as a friend.

I also knew two guys who were killed in motorcycle crashes during this time (54 years), although I have no idea how many of my friends/acquaintances ride vs. fly. I recall only one person I met who was killed in a car crash.. I think comparing the risks of different activities is useful. But obviously we're not all making decisions based on minimizing risk.

There are ways to reduce the risk even in competition, which I think is probably riskier than doing rides around the gliderport. Eight of "my" 18 died at contests (44%) with another five arguably practicing for it. All were experienced, mature, high-time pilots. Medical factors may have been a factor in at least four cases but often it’s tough to make that call, although sometimes we’re tempted because it makes us feel better about the genuine risks we incur.

The safest thing is not flying at all. I’ve considered that. I’ve been away from soaring three times for multi-year periods (unrelated to risk) and come back every time after considering the pro’s and con’s. I still love soaring but the risk is always there. I’ve never been cavalier about the danger but I’m probably more careful now than I was 50 years ago. I think our community addresses safety much better than in the past. But--I concede that if soaring were 100% risk free (a la Condor, which I enjoy), it wouldn’t be as compelling. Cognitive dissonance is a wonderful thing!

Chip Bearden
JB

Thanks for your thoughtful contribution, Chip!
Out of curiosity: is this a unique American issue? How does the US compare to other soaring nations? Maybe we can learn something from a comparison.
Does anyone have data on that?

Uli
'AS'

Out of curiosity: is this a unique American issue? How does the US compare to other soaring nations? Maybe we can learn something from a comparison.
Does anyone have data on that?

Uli
'AS'

I don't know, Uli. IIRC, top pilot Bruno Gantenbrink of Germany was the first to publicly address the fallacy of the "most dangerous part of soaring" so I suspect the U.S. is not the only place where the data conflict with what we'd like to believe. His insightful speech, published in Aerokurier more than 25 years ago, is on the DG site and should be required reading for all of us in the sport, but especially cross-country and competition pilots.

https://www.dg-flugzeugbau.de/en/lib...ty-comes-first

More thought-provoking reading on the same subject is Aussie Bruce Taylor's account of a day at our Nationals at Nephi a few years ago. I heard this top pilot speak about it the next morning at the pilots' meeting and I wish everyone could have been the

https://glidingaustralia.org/mag/GA32.pdf

If there are lessons to be learned from other countries, we should seek them out. Perhaps someone could look at the data.

Chip Bearden
JB

wrote on 11/5/2019 4:12 PM:
Out of curiosity: is this a unique American issue? How does the US compare to other soaring nations? Maybe we can learn something from a comparison.
Does anyone have data on that?

Uli
'AS'

I don't know, Uli. IIRC, top pilot Bruno Gantenbrink of Germany was the first to publicly address the fallacy of the "most dangerous part of soaring" so I suspect the U.S. is not the only place where the data conflict with what we'd like to believe. His insightful speech, published in Aerokurier more than 25 years ago, is on the DG site and should be required reading for all of us in the sport, but especially cross-country and competition pilots.

https://www.dg-flugzeugbau.de/en/lib...ty-comes-first

More thought-provoking reading on the same subject is Aussie Bruce Taylor's account of a day at our Nationals at Nephi a few years ago. I heard this top pilot speak about it the next morning at the pilots' meeting and I wish everyone could have been the

https://glidingaustralia.org/mag/GA32.pdf

Woof! That was hair raiser - 600 feet AGL over the far side of the moon. I don't
like to be that low when I enter the pattern.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1

I was in Hong Kong the day Bruce nearly landed on the moon, but got the full report when he picked me up at SLC.
We're all capable of getting in trouble, and need to be aware of that.
Jim

On Tuesday, November 5, 2019 at 4:12:30 PM UTC-8, wrote:
More thought-provoking reading on the same subject is Aussie Bruce Taylor's account of a day at our Nationals at Nephi a few years ago. I heard this top pilot speak about it the next morning at the pilots' meeting and I wish everyone could have been the

https://glidingaustralia.org/mag/GA32.pdf

Thanks Chip for the very thoughtful, honest and well written post, as well as the link to Bruce’s article. I needed to read this. Going forward I am going to try to keep track of how many holes left ahead of me in my Swiss cheese and not get too close to the last hole.

Ramy

On Tuesday, November 5, 2019 at 4:12:30 PM UTC-8, wrote:
Out of curiosity: is this a unique American issue? How does the US compare to other soaring nations? Maybe we can learn something from a comparison.

On Tuesday, November 5, 2019 at 11:56:36 PM UTC-5, Ramy wrote:
Going forward I am going to try to keep track of how many holes left ahead of me in my Swiss cheese and not get too close to the last hole.

My $0.02: I think that is /exactly/ the way that experienced guys like Bruce get into trouble. What's missing from that article: a determination to have a specific landing option that one can glide to, /especially/ in tiger country. This is basic XC stuff. Risk management means breaking the chain of events that lead to an accident or scary situation early. You accept the cost of a slow climb, detour (for weather, landability, etc.) and get on with your day.

Accidents and bad scares we've had in my club have been 80% due to inadequate XC risk management. Most of that 80% consists of lower experience guys misunderstanding how the more experienced guys do this (i.e. with discipline).

T8