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Recirculate cockpit air to keep feet warm?



 
 
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  #11  
Old December 27th 18, 04:52 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
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Default Recirculate cockpit air to keep feet warm?

On Thursday, December 27, 2018 at 12:40:59 AM UTC-5, V1 wrote:
I wouldn’t argue with the suggestions for foot/boot insulation – that’s all good. I would only add a perspective on treating causes vs. symptoms.

... A key point is that the reason (cause) for hands/feet/ears/etc. getting cold is that our core (chest & central organs) are getting cool, so our body compensates to protect the core by reducing blood flow to the extremities (symptom). ...
- Frank Allen


OK, but people do differ. In my case, with rather long and very skinny legs, my feet (and fingers) get cold even when my core is quite warm and even sweaty. Long underpants and/or leggings like flubber mentioned do help. But like I said, there was a huge change in my feet comfort in cold conditions when I changed from a glider with the transparent canopy extending to the feet vs. one with the feet and lower legs in the shade.
  #12  
Old December 27th 18, 05:07 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Dan Daly[_2_]
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Default Recirculate cockpit air to keep feet warm?

On Thursday, December 27, 2018 at 10:52:22 AM UTC-5, wrote:
On Thursday, December 27, 2018 at 12:40:59 AM UTC-5, V1 wrote:
I wouldn’t argue with the suggestions for foot/boot insulation – that’s all good. I would only add a perspective on treating causes vs. symptoms.

... A key point is that the reason (cause) for hands/feet/ears/etc. getting cold is that our core (chest & central organs) are getting cool, so our body compensates to protect the core by reducing blood flow to the extremities (symptom). ...
- Frank Allen


OK, but people do differ. In my case, with rather long and very skinny legs, my feet (and fingers) get cold even when my core is quite warm and even sweaty. Long underpants and/or leggings like flubber mentioned do help. But like I said, there was a huge change in my feet comfort in cold conditions when I changed from a glider with the transparent canopy extending to the feet vs. one with the feet and lower legs in the shade.


If your feet get cold, wear a bigger/better hat. I use a knitted cap with thinsulate. I switch from a normal soaring hat when I get off tow. Also, I switch socks just before takeoff to reduce moisture, and spray my feet with antiperspirant in the morning. Making sure you don't sweat getting the glider ready is also critical.
  #13  
Old December 28th 18, 01:10 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
AS
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Default Recirculate cockpit air to keep feet warm?

On Wednesday, December 26, 2018 at 5:16:20 PM UTC+1, wrote:
On Tuesday, December 25, 2018 at 11:53:19 PM UTC-6, wrote:
As we know, flying in wave with the sun shining, much of the cockpit stays reasonably warm, but the feet, down in the shade, get cold. So, as I'm here at home on a cold night with a fan helping distribute the heat from the wood stove to another room, it occurred to me that something like that may be possible in the cockpit? A small fan (using a fraction of the electric power that the typical instrument panel uses), perhaps with a short duct, could move sun-warmed air towards the feet. Has that been tried? Does it help? Would it use more electrical power than electrically heated insoles?

Back when I flew an HP-14 which had a canopy that extended forward over the rudder pedals, my feet were much warmer in cold but sunny weather than they are in my current glider. As long as I was pointed towards the sun, that is - typically pointed into a West wind in the afternoon. As soon as I turned around to the East the cockpit temperature plunged.


Have been flying now for 5 years with these Gerbing insoles and the recommended temp controller, also from Gerbing.
https://www.revzilla.com/motorcycle/...caAvYwEALw_wcB
I run them on a dedicated 12V LiFePo4 battery. After 2 hours at altitude when the feet get cold I turn the unit on and dial the controller back to a setting that I tested prior to keep my feet toasty but not hot. I know of at least 4 pilots who also use these with no issues.
Herb


An alternative to these insoles are heated socks. I bought a pair years ago from a hunting supply catalog. The advantage is that they warm your feet all around up to your ankles rather than grilling just the bottom of your feet. They run on 4.5VDC. I built a 12V-to-4.5V converter using a fast switching power supply with a simple on-off rocker switch for temperature control.. Worked well and did not drain the battery too badly.

Uli
'AS'
  #14  
Old December 28th 18, 12:15 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
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Default Recirculate cockpit air to keep feet warm?

I had really good luck sticking with my original footwear. (after a wave camp participant had to hike out after an accident, serious though to functional footwear)

I think put my cycling neoprene overshoes on OVER my footwear, with chemical footwarmers on TOP of my original footwear, but under the neoprene.

Plenty of warmth, without overheating my toes with the heaters on my feet directly.

In the event of a land out.. Peel them off and on your way.

JP
  #15  
Old December 28th 18, 01:13 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
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Default Recirculate cockpit air to keep feet warm?

I have used that idea - neoprene cycling boots over ordinary boots + thick socks. The neoprene helps a little but absolutely nothing like as good as Skyboots 3g or 4g over flying boots. Chemical warmers are ok but a bit pot luck. Electric insoles or socks are OK but the batteries are a nuisance - I have various types in my sock drawer.
  #16  
Old December 29th 18, 02:45 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
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Default Recirculate cockpit air to keep feet warm?

On Thursday, December 27, 2018 at 7:10:25 PM UTC-5, AS wrote:
On Wednesday, December 26, 2018 at 5:16:20 PM UTC+1, wrote:
On Tuesday, December 25, 2018 at 11:53:19 PM UTC-6, wrote:
As we know, flying in wave with the sun shining, much of the cockpit stays reasonably warm, but the feet, down in the shade, get cold. So, as I'm here at home on a cold night with a fan helping distribute the heat from the wood stove to another room, it occurred to me that something like that may be possible in the cockpit? A small fan (using a fraction of the electric power that the typical instrument panel uses), perhaps with a short duct, could move sun-warmed air towards the feet. Has that been tried? Does it help? Would it use more electrical power than electrically heated insoles?

Back when I flew an HP-14 which had a canopy that extended forward over the rudder pedals, my feet were much warmer in cold but sunny weather than they are in my current glider. As long as I was pointed towards the sun, that is - typically pointed into a West wind in the afternoon. As soon as I turned around to the East the cockpit temperature plunged.


Have been flying now for 5 years with these Gerbing insoles and the recommended temp controller, also from Gerbing.
https://www.revzilla.com/motorcycle/...caAvYwEALw_wcB
I run them on a dedicated 12V LiFePo4 battery. After 2 hours at altitude when the feet get cold I turn the unit on and dial the controller back to a setting that I tested prior to keep my feet toasty but not hot. I know of at least 4 pilots who also use these with no issues.
Herb


An alternative to these insoles are heated socks. I bought a pair years ago from a hunting supply catalog. The advantage is that they warm your feet all around up to your ankles rather than grilling just the bottom of your feet. They run on 4.5VDC. I built a 12V-to-4.5V converter using a fast switching power supply with a simple on-off rocker switch for temperature control. Worked well and did not drain the battery too badly.

Uli
'AS'


Uli: if those socks are designed to work with 3 alkaline cells, nominally 4..5V, they probably would be quite happy with 5V too (like fresh alkalines). (Or you can put a regular silicon diode into the supply line to reduce the 5V to about 4.3.) So you can use a cheap 12V to 5V converter (designed for USB jack charging).
  #17  
Old December 29th 18, 04:55 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Dan Marotta
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Default Recirculate cockpit air to keep feet warm?

A cheap voltage converter is likely to be very noisy in the RF
spectrum.Â* I tried one for charging a pda and it continually broke
squelch on my radio.

And, as to the original topic of circulating cockpit air, I don't think
that would be of much use and the air in the cockpit is cold. You feel
warm due to infrared heating from the sun.Â* I've felt quite warm in the
sunlight, seen my breath condense in front of me, and been very cold the
instant I flew under a lennie.

Dan

On 12/28/2018 6:45 PM, wrote:
On Thursday, December 27, 2018 at 7:10:25 PM UTC-5, AS wrote:
On Wednesday, December 26, 2018 at 5:16:20 PM UTC+1, wrote:
On Tuesday, December 25, 2018 at 11:53:19 PM UTC-6, wrote:
As we know, flying in wave with the sun shining, much of the cockpit stays reasonably warm, but the feet, down in the shade, get cold. So, as I'm here at home on a cold night with a fan helping distribute the heat from the wood stove to another room, it occurred to me that something like that may be possible in the cockpit? A small fan (using a fraction of the electric power that the typical instrument panel uses), perhaps with a short duct, could move sun-warmed air towards the feet. Has that been tried? Does it help? Would it use more electrical power than electrically heated insoles?

Back when I flew an HP-14 which had a canopy that extended forward over the rudder pedals, my feet were much warmer in cold but sunny weather than they are in my current glider. As long as I was pointed towards the sun, that is - typically pointed into a West wind in the afternoon. As soon as I turned around to the East the cockpit temperature plunged.
Have been flying now for 5 years with these Gerbing insoles and the recommended temp controller, also from Gerbing.
https://www.revzilla.com/motorcycle/...caAvYwEALw_wcB
I run them on a dedicated 12V LiFePo4 battery. After 2 hours at altitude when the feet get cold I turn the unit on and dial the controller back to a setting that I tested prior to keep my feet toasty but not hot. I know of at least 4 pilots who also use these with no issues.
Herb

An alternative to these insoles are heated socks. I bought a pair years ago from a hunting supply catalog. The advantage is that they warm your feet all around up to your ankles rather than grilling just the bottom of your feet. They run on 4.5VDC. I built a 12V-to-4.5V converter using a fast switching power supply with a simple on-off rocker switch for temperature control. Worked well and did not drain the battery too badly.

Uli
'AS'

Uli: if those socks are designed to work with 3 alkaline cells, nominally 4.5V, they probably would be quite happy with 5V too (like fresh alkalines). (Or you can put a regular silicon diode into the supply line to reduce the 5V to about 4.3.) So you can use a cheap 12V to 5V converter (designed for USB jack charging).


--
Dan, 5J
  #18  
Old December 29th 18, 06:37 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)
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Posts: 1,383
Default Recirculate cockpit air to keep feet warm?

I have been watching........yes, a ton of cheap switching convertors create errors to other electronics. This alone can create issues.
Period.
Sunlight/ER keeps feet warm.
Insulation to metal pedals keeps feet warm.
A "warm circulator" may help, insulation is first. Wicking away moisture is second, anything else is a bonus.
No, I have no real time in extreme flying cold, I have dealt with hiking, camping, etc.

Damp sucks.
Solar helps.

Yes, may be warm at the airport, sucks to be way up in cloud shadows.........
  #19  
Old December 29th 18, 09:03 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
BobW
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Default Recirculate cockpit air to keep feet warm?

On 12/29/2018 10:37 AM, Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot) wrote:
...
Sunlight/ER keeps feet warm. Insulation to metal pedals keeps feet warm. A
"warm circulator" may help, insulation is first. Wicking away moisture is
second, anything else is a bonus. No, I have no real time in extreme flying
cold, I have dealt with hiking, camping, etc.

Damp sucks. Solar helps.

Yes, may be warm at the airport, sucks to be way up in cloud
shadows.........


Presumably every wave-pilot-wannabe RASident, SSA-member, has read and (ahem!)
absorbed Dr. Dan Johnson's Most Excellent, topically-relevant, article in the
December, 2018, "Soaring" mag? Nine pages of ad-hoc-relevant
research/wisdom...that 100% matches with my personal experiences over the years.

FWIW, the absolute coldest I've ever been in my life was a short (~60 minutes
from T.O. to landing), 100% easy, duskish, wave flight, in December, from a
ground elevation of 5,300' msl to 18k' msl and back, entirely in heavy cloud
shadow. For a westerner at an inland western-site (Boulder, CO), it was
simultaneously: visually enthralling; plain ol' fun; painless in the
'gnarly-conditions' aspect (no nasty ground winds or gnarly turbulence beneath
the wave); above-freezing (when rigging) mild temps on the ground.

How cold was it? I was too busy trying to stop the shivers as I neared pattern
altitude, so I could fly the pattern, to remember! Derigging was no help
'generating heat.' Driving home 18 miles involved intermittent bouts of
shivering. Car heat? Ha ha ha! Two bowls of hot homemade chicken soup barely
helped. I was too cold to bother with pulling a hot bath. Tripling the covers
while trying to stop the post-soup shivers in hopes of going to sleep (as a
means of getting my mind off my cold-soaked woes) eventually did the trick. I
awoke 'somewhat-less-cold' and seriously in need of additional food calories
the next morning...and swore to never be so foolish again. (I'd considered
turning around around 15k' asl on the way up, but didn't as it seemed just
'too soon after establishing a no-brainer wave climb.' Besides, it looked as
though - possibly - I might be able to climb into sunlight while remaining
beneath 18k'. It wasn't. What an idiot!)

And yes, I was wearing long johns top and bottom, had several layers of
clothing ankle to neck, had on cheapie (but effective!) moon boots (de rigeur
gliderpilot garb in the 1980s; still have 'em and they still work). knit cap,
excellent gloves. What got/felt cold was my torso...no extremities chilblains
or anything. I should've begun descending the instant I realized I was
underdressed for the evening's conditions...an option considered and
intentionally delayed.

Dumb, dumb, dumb...

Bob W.

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  #20  
Old December 29th 18, 09:38 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)
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Default Recirculate cockpit air to keep feet warm?

I have done only a few flights above 13K' MSL in the east, never higher than that.
In other parts, 13K' MSL is a decent Soaring day.

So, I am NOT an expert!

Yes, metal rudder pedals can suck heat real fast.
Sunlight can help a lot.
Being damp (rigging, damp day, whatever.....) REALLY sucks heat.

I can only go by many years/miles hiking and likely lower flight altitudes for flying.
I will TOTALLY defer to others that think my "great altitude" is sorta the bottom of their "safe altitude".

Gotta think of where you are vs. where info is coming from.
 




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