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#31
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JSF Price Tag Jumps to $135 Million
"Ian B MacLure" wrote in message .. . " Sunny" wrote in news:xXhpn.14133$pv.11282 @news-server.bigpond.net.au: [snip] Here in Australia our stupid Govt. has not yet cancelled orders for the thing. As for artillery, you have to get the tubes and ammo close enough first, to support the Infantry. (Ex Grunt with 36 years service.) We should have bought F15s to replace our F111 :-) As to artillery, things have changed recently. First round hits from 30+ km for tube artillery and 75km for MLRS are not uncommon. A single MLRS or truck mounted version thereof can cover an area 150km in diameter. What JSF does is give you longer range strike capacity and H hour ability to take out high value targets undetected until things are supposed to go pear shaped. IBM Close Air Support/Close Arty Support? The old 8 inch were considered to be accurate, but we could never call the first round closer than 1000 metres, even when we knew our position down to 25 metres. Shudder to think what the "Close Support" first round restrictions would be. As a Grunt I hope it would be within ear shot, for the next correction request. (Especially with many diverse Infantry Ops within your 150km area) :-) |
#32
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JSF Price Tag Jumps to $135 Million
" Sunny" wrote in
: "Ian B MacLure" wrote in message .. . " Sunny" wrote in news:xXhpn.14133$pv.11282 @news-server.bigpond.net.au: [snip] Here in Australia our stupid Govt. has not yet cancelled orders for the thing. As for artillery, you have to get the tubes and ammo close enough first, to support the Infantry. (Ex Grunt with 36 years service.) We should have bought F15s to replace our F111 :-) As to artillery, things have changed recently. First round hits from 30+ km for tube artillery and 75km for MLRS are not uncommon. A single MLRS or truck mounted version thereof can cover an area 150km in diameter. What JSF does is give you longer range strike capacity and H hour ability to take out high value targets undetected until things are supposed to go pear shaped. IBM Close Air Support/Close Arty Support? The old 8 inch were considered to be accurate, but we could never call the first round closer than 1000 metres, even when we knew our position down to 25 metres. Shudder to think what the "Close Support" first round restrictions would be. As a Grunt I hope it would be within ear shot, for the next correction request. (Especially with many diverse Infantry Ops within your 150km area) :-) It has been a long time since I have done it so I may be missing a wrinkle, but DANGER CLOSE could be brought in to four probable errors of friendly positions from 1000 metres for 155 and 620 metres for 105. If you have at least 0.45 metres overhead cover, you can bring it onto the positions if need be. Which PE you use depends on the relationship of the line gun-target to the positions. -- Andrew Chaplin SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO (If you're going to e-mail me, you'll have to get "yourfinger." out.) |
#33
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JSF Price Tag Jumps to $135 Million
On Mar 23, 6:45*am, Andrew Chaplin
wrote: ... It has been a long time since I have done it so I may be missing a wrinkle, Andrew Chaplin The question I poorly stated (purple smoke) was whether standoff PGMs could completely replace observer-adjusted artillery or more importantly manned CAS, I think it's possible that an enemy could create countermeasures against laser designators etc but don't want to discuss how, lets just assume they can, like assuming that pig the Natter can fly. jsw |
#34
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JSF Price Tag Jumps to $135 Million
Ian B MacLure wrote:
Arved Sandstrom wrote in news:SlSpn.6$Jw4.5@edtnps82: [snip] That may be true. But given that radar stealth doesn't mean radar invisible, flying at 20,000+ feet doesn't exactly make you safe from SAMs. And even if the F-35 is dropping some PGM glide-bomb from 50 nm away he's still over some other patch of ground with SAMs and their radars. And who says the SAMs are going to know the JSF is there until things start going pear shaped? Well, I suppose if all the enemy's radars are switched off and we only fight at night, maybe the SAMs won't. Like I said, these planes are radar *stealthy*, not radar invisible. And that depends on angle as well - painted from the beam or not far off, these planes presumably don't have the RCS of a mosquito. And if that's all the plane is going to do is stand off at incredible distances to launch ordnance, we can't have cheaper planes do the same thing? Or just build a ****load of cruise missiles? And weren't we discussing CAS not IDS. IBM The "close" in CAS is defined by how close the ordnance is blowing up to friendlies, not how far away the ordnance came from. AHS |
#35
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JSF Price Tag Jumps to $135 Million
" Sunny" wrote in
: "Ian B MacLure" wrote in message .. . " Sunny" wrote in news:xXhpn.14133$pv.11282 @news-server.bigpond.net.au: [snip] Here in Australia our stupid Govt. has not yet cancelled orders for the thing. As for artillery, you have to get the tubes and ammo close enough first, to support the Infantry. (Ex Grunt with 36 years service.) We should have bought F15s to replace our F111 :-) As to artillery, things have changed recently. First round hits from 30+ km for tube artillery and 75km for MLRS are not uncommon. A single MLRS or truck mounted version thereof can cover an area 150km in diameter. What JSF does is give you longer range strike capacity and H hour ability to take out high value targets undetected until things are supposed to go pear shaped. IBM Close Air Support/Close Arty Support? The old 8 inch were considered to be accurate, but we could never call the first round closer than 1000 metres, even when we knew our Yeah that would be peacetime. In A'stan NATO I think has 700m or so but when push came to shove it was "Danger Close" and folks were known to call in fire on their own position in extremsis. US forces in A'stan routinely call in to 200m IIRC. IBM |
#36
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JSF Price Tag Jumps to $135 Million
Arved Sandstrom wrote in news:b_9qn.2$T6.1@edtnps83:
[snip] The "close" in CAS is defined by how close the ordnance is blowing up to friendlies, not how far away the ordnance came from. I am aware of that. IDS is generally not a mission that occurs in the presence of friendlies. CAS is, in fact thats sort of the point of CAS. IBM |
#37
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JSF Price Tag Jumps to $135 Million
"Ian B MacLure" wrote in message .. . " Sunny" wrote in : "Ian B MacLure" wrote in message .. . " Sunny" wrote in news:xXhpn.14133$pv.11282 @news-server.bigpond.net.au: [snip] Here in Australia our stupid Govt. has not yet cancelled orders for the thing. As for artillery, you have to get the tubes and ammo close enough first, to support the Infantry. (Ex Grunt with 36 years service.) We should have bought F15s to replace our F111 :-) As to artillery, things have changed recently. First round hits from 30+ km for tube artillery and 75km for MLRS are not uncommon. A single MLRS or truck mounted version thereof can cover an area 150km in diameter. What JSF does is give you longer range strike capacity and H hour ability to take out high value targets undetected until things are supposed to go pear shaped. IBM Close Air Support/Close Arty Support? The old 8 inch were considered to be accurate, but we could never call the first round closer than 1000 metres, even when we knew our Yeah that would be peacetime. In A'stan NATO I think has 700m or so but when push came to shove it was "Danger Close" and folks were known to call in fire on their own position in extremsis. US forces in A'stan routinely call in to 200m IIRC. IBM Not talking about peacetime, but SVN 69/70. I have called in Kiwi 105, US 155 and 8inch, plus RAN 4.7inch. The only time "first round on the ground", distance from observer target was not questioned was when guns were in direct support of unit calling it in (Locstats were continually updated when moving) But, getting back to CAS, The JSF cannot cut it when "pop smoke" is called. The most important part of CAS is not hitting your own, and you cannot identify friendly forces from 50km away. IMHO the Australian Govt. should cancel orders for the JSF and look elsewhere for our needs. (Any A10s for sale) :-) |
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