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Flap performance



 
 
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  #21  
Old July 20th 17, 05:16 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Tango Whisky
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Default Flap performance

Ventus B and Ventus C are different gliders.

Bert TW
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  #22  
Old July 20th 17, 10:56 AM
Brett Brett is offline
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[quote='Just Me[_2_];951833']I'm considering purchasing a Ventus B. I'm aware of the "stability" issues, although some the extent of the stability issue seems to vary from plane to plane and pilot to pilot. I've talked to some people who say its not a big deal, and others who say its problematic. It's hard for me to know what to expect.

However, I was discussing flaps with a flight instructor and a question came up: How does a Ventus in neutral flaps compare to a Discus (I'm aware of the handling difference)? If you are in competition, flying a flapped ships, against other flapped ships, you better be an expert with the flaps. But if you are doing cross country work, are flaps essentially just an asset that is optionally available to allow you to slow down in a thermal or speed up in cruise.

He asserted that the Discus wing was considerably more advanced than the Ventus wing, and that you had to effectively use the flaps or you were actually better off (performance wise) with the Discus -- ie if you aren't flying a lot, you should stay away from flaps.

Can anyone compare the performance of a Discus to a Ventus, or better yet, does anyone have polars for a Discus and a Ventus (as a function of flap setting)?

Checkout the Dick Johnson flight tests at http://web.archive.org/web/200502061...es/Johnson.asp (hope the link works)
You will see the Ventus is clearly superior at speeds over 80Kt.
And no - you don't have to be an expert to use flaps - if you can change gears in a manual car at about the right time as any idiot can, you will have no problem using flaps. If you don't want to use flaps you are far better off with a standard class glider with a wing profile optimized as such.
A Ventus B is a great glider but there are far more suitable flapped or unflapped gliders in this price range for you to be considering at your stage of flying.
  #23  
Old July 20th 17, 12:03 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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Default Flap performance

I switched from a Libelle Club directly to an LS6a and I found it really benign and easy to fly (almost in unballasted condition) and not so flap setting sensitive (if you set neutral and leave it for the rest of the flight you have an LS8!).

Carlo


Il giorno mercoledì 19 luglio 2017 19:58:19 UTC+2, Just Me ha scritto:
I just want to be clear, I'm NOT scared of flaps. I have 60 hours in a flapped Libelle and probably 10 hours in a Janus A (all flying tail). The question is, given that I anticipate flying 20-40 hrs a year, am I overcomplicating my flying experience by selecting a Ventus (or any flapped ship) to the point that it will be either less enjoyable or that I'll actually get less performance than a comparable standard class ship (Discus) if I'm not on top of them. I'm not scared I'll kill myself. I am scared that I may not enjoy flying as much or not be as confident at being able to get into a "groove" on a thermal.

Part of the problem is there is no doubt in my mind that a Ventus is harder to fly than a Discus or, say an LS8, but some people have suggested its no big deal, others have said, you take your hand off the stick for two seconds and you're in a spiral dive... And all have come from people who actually have flown them. Its hard for me to know what to make of it. One Ventus owner who flew the same Janus A I flew said it was pretty comparable. He also said, always use the winglets.


  #24  
Old July 20th 17, 02:21 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Ben Crook
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Default Flap performance

[cut previous]...

I just want to be clear, I'm NOT scared of flaps. I have 60 hours in a

flapped Libelle and probably 10 hours in a Janus A (all flying tail). The
question is, given that I anticipate flying 20-40 hrs a year, am I
overcomp licating my flying experience by selecting a Ventus (or any
flapped ship) to the point that it will be either less enjoyable or that
I'll actually get less performance than a comparable standard class ship
(Discus) if I'm not on top of them. I'm not scared I'll kill myself. I am
scared that I may not enjoy flying as much or not be as confident at
being able to get into a "groove" on a thermal.

I'm into my fifth season in a Ventus bT, having previously flown an ASW19.
I fly about 20-40 hours a year and have about 300 gliding hours now.

Are you overcomplicating your flying experience going with a Ventus b vs
non flapped? Will flaps make it less fun or spoil your performance?

My two cents:

1. Yes initially your flying experience will be degraded. I guess all
pilots would fly a discus or LS8 better than a ventus b initially. But
10-15 hours of mixed thermalling and cruising should be enough to get a
hand/eye in on the ventus b.

2. The ventus b is a great glider. It loves going straight and fast loaded
up with water (-1 setting). With tips (16.6m) it climbs well (+2 setting)
alongside all other gliders (I race against a mixed fleet and it climbs as
well as the others). Neutral is used for long gentle glides (60kts with
water, 50kts without) to cross gaps, finish final glides. The flaps are
really not complex. But they add a lot in the pull-ups and speeding up. I
would not fly without them.

A recent flight in good conditions:

http://www.bgaladder.co.uk/dscore.as...tID=66435&RC=X



  #25  
Old July 20th 17, 02:53 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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Default Flap performance

On Wednesday, July 19, 2017 at 2:59:05 AM UTC-4, Just Me wrote:
I'm considering purchasing a Ventus B. I'm aware of the "stability" issues, although some the extent of the stability issue seems to vary from plane to plane and pilot to pilot. I've talked to some people who say its not a big deal, and others who say its problematic. It's hard for me to know what to expect.

However, I was discussing flaps with a flight instructor and a question came up: How does a Ventus in neutral flaps compare to a Discus (I'm aware of the handling difference)? If you are in competition, flying a flapped ships, against other flapped ships, you better be an expert with the flaps. But if you are doing cross country work, are flaps essentially just an asset that is optionally available to allow you to slow down in a thermal or speed up in cruise.

He asserted that the Discus wing was considerably more advanced than the Ventus wing, and that you had to effectively use the flaps or you were actually better off (performance wise) with the Discus -- ie if you aren't flying a lot, you should stay away from flaps.

Can anyone compare the performance of a Discus to a Ventus, or better yet, does anyone have polars for a Discus and a Ventus (as a function of flap setting)?

FWIW, I have about 200 hours, and have flown flapped ships, including a 301 Libelle and a Janus -- as well as a wide variety of other non-flapped ships.


Before I flew my Ventus I had some hours on three two seat gliders (Grob 103, ASK 21 and a Dual Discus. The discuss was the best experience because of similar cockpit layout. My first flight was in flap setting 0 and I used plus 2 flap for the landing. After that I was fine with the flaps and I do use flap setting 2 for thermalling a lot. It probably will take you 20-40hrs to dial in. My biggest issue was the very effective air brake flap system that will make this 40 plus glider into a 5/1 is seconds! Because its on the trailing edge the nose dramatically points down when you use L flap setting and full brake. The other issue is just learning how to optimize the glider in the climb and I would think there is a learning period for all gliders on that and maybe the Ventus is a little more touchy. After 40 hours I was pretty comfortable and now I am enjoying the performance at speed and the ability to land on a short field. Most of the trash on the Ventus comes from a couple RAS/soaring blog posts and If I remember correctly the guy was making the case for a discus over the Ventus.

If money is not the object, flaps are not a need and you have a nice conditioned discus to consider go with it. I wanted flaps and the best performance for my dollar and at that time and I bought my Ventus. One other thing.... I have winglets and my glider tracks pretty well as to that drama queen statement of letting go of the stick into a spiral dive I have not found any evidence of that. You do need to fly the glider and can't let go and have a seven course meal. That said I have fiddled with my flight computer, drink water, and taken photos with my iphone without any issues.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it...-

Dennis

DC
  #26  
Old July 20th 17, 03:48 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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Default Flap performance

On Tuesday, July 18, 2017 at 11:59:05 PM UTC-7, Just Me wrote:
I'm considering purchasing a Ventus B. I'm aware of the "stability" issues, although some the extent of the stability issue seems to vary from plane to plane and pilot to pilot. I've talked to some people who say its not a big deal, and others who say its problematic. It's hard for me to know what to expect.

However, I was discussing flaps with a flight instructor and a question came up: How does a Ventus in neutral flaps compare to a Discus (I'm aware of the handling difference)? If you are in competition, flying a flapped ships, against other flapped ships, you better be an expert with the flaps. But if you are doing cross country work, are flaps essentially just an asset that is optionally available to allow you to slow down in a thermal or speed up in cruise.

He asserted that the Discus wing was considerably more advanced than the Ventus wing, and that you had to effectively use the flaps or you were actually better off (performance wise) with the Discus -- ie if you aren't flying a lot, you should stay away from flaps.

Can anyone compare the performance of a Discus to a Ventus, or better yet, does anyone have polars for a Discus and a Ventus (as a function of flap setting)?

FWIW, I have about 200 hours, and have flown flapped ships, including a 301 Libelle and a Janus -- as well as a wide variety of other non-flapped ships.


I think I can help with your question. I have 4 years in a Ventus B no winglets, got in it with about 1000 hours, much of that as a ride pilot. I've flown a Janus, Libelle 201, and owned a Kestrel 17 for a few years before the Ventus. I have not flown a Discus or 301, but I have a couple hundred hours in an LS-4.

The Janus and Kestrel are complete puppy dogs compared to the B no winglets.. I wouldn't use those gliders as any determining factor, other than whether you like using flaps or not. Whether you want flaps or you want a Ventus B are two very different questions. More important with the Ventus, do you have good glide path control on final? It has dive brakes and you don't want to pull them in at all on final when close to the ground. They are very effective though so it's easy to stay high and pull more and more in (if you have to, usually its easy for me to estimate correctly) towards touchdown. I love the glider on final, it's super stable and has a very wide glide angle range.

I love my Ventus because I cannot afford a V2, 27, etc. I'm hoping to get into a C model at some point... On a strong day with reasonably smooth thermals it is shockingly fast and a blast to fly. On a strong and turbulent day it is still fast, but can completely thrash me in about 4 hours so that my motivation to maximize the day is diminished considerably. Just flying the glider, stick and rudder, on those days takes a lot (too much) of your mental workload, even when it's going on in the background. You notice it after a few hours.
Other than that I love everything about the glider. Auto hookups, water tanks, I love the dive brakes/landing flaps (+2) on final, and the price is great because of the (somewhat) undeserved handling reputation.

Is there any way you can fly a Ventus B before buying? And fly it on a turbulent day.

WHERE are you going to fly it? In a place with strong lift/turbulence or gentle If gentle I say go for it, if not then you have some things to consider. Ben mentions flying his a 50-60 kts during glides. I've never flown mine below 65 in a glide? I fly in the western US. In Oregon where the thermals are almost always smooth and less powerful, it is the perfect glider for me. In Nevada on a turbulent day, the glider can be alot of work. I heard people say that you can't take your hand off the stick and I couldn't believe that, but it's essentially true. It will wander in pitch so much that you have to have one hand at least steadying the stick.

With half water, about 1000 pounds auw. it wants to go 85+. That to me is a great glider. Now you get to decide...



  #27  
Old July 20th 17, 04:04 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Dan Marotta
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Default Flap performance

Fill it to the gills with water and /_really_/ enjoy the ride!

On 7/20/2017 5:03 AM, wrote:
I switched from a Libelle Club directly to an LS6a and I found it really benign and easy to fly (almost in unballasted condition) and not so flap setting sensitive (if you set neutral and leave it for the rest of the flight you have an LS8!).

Carlo


Il giorno mercoledì 19 luglio 2017 19:58:19 UTC+2, Just Me ha scritto:
I just want to be clear, I'm NOT scared of flaps. I have 60 hours in a flapped Libelle and probably 10 hours in a Janus A (all flying tail). The question is, given that I anticipate flying 20-40 hrs a year, am I overcomplicating my flying experience by selecting a Ventus (or any flapped ship) to the point that it will be either less enjoyable or that I'll actually get less performance than a comparable standard class ship (Discus) if I'm not on top of them. I'm not scared I'll kill myself. I am scared that I may not enjoy flying as much or not be as confident at being able to get into a "groove" on a thermal.

Part of the problem is there is no doubt in my mind that a Ventus is harder to fly than a Discus or, say an LS8, but some people have suggested its no big deal, others have said, you take your hand off the stick for two seconds and you're in a spiral dive... And all have come from people who actually have flown them. Its hard for me to know what to make of it. One Ventus owner who flew the same Janus A I flew said it was pretty comparable. He also said, always use the winglets.


--
Dan, 5J

  #28  
Old July 20th 17, 04:20 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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Posts: 86
Default Flap performance

Forgot to get to my main point... As Tango Eight says, if you are going to use the glider to learn how to fly XC, then you might want to get something else first? Libelle, Kestrel, Jantar? I suspect you will become a better xc pilot faster with something easier to fly. OTOH, if you expect to keep the glider for a long time, are essentially flying for fun, and you aren't learning in the southwestern US, then maybe you get it now and build both skills, learning XC and learning the Ventus, at the same time. Ask your instructor(s) to be honest with you and give you an opinion of what is best for you? I'd be extremely hesitant to go against an instructor opinion, especially if they fly XC regularly. And finally, all of my comments refer to the Ventus B no winglets, winglets apparently make the glider fly much better. Maybe Cliff can weigh in on that, he has flown the same glider with both.
 




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