Chopper crash

Kids,

Do not try this at home; its not a demo, its stoopid. There's a really good
chance that you'll never get the chopper back under control because of the
inertia of the spin. And by the way, if you get in to this condition in a
hover over a nice surface you might consider chopping the damn throttle.

Oh and FWIW; I think the water crash this thread is all about was caused
because the guy came in too hot, got behind the turbine, and couldn't arrest
the sink into the drink. Then the dude was so focused on getting the thing
back outa the water that he did a forward version of a dynamic rollover. If
he'd had a system failure, then why would he try to take off again?

There was a comment in here about hin getting into low rotor RPM. That
doesn't really happen in a turbine ship unless you're already behind the
engine so far that you can't get the power up (or you have a low-side
governor failure). Chances are the dude pulled pitch too late and saw his
torque-o-meter peg at the redline and his VSI still saying "elevator-down".
Looked to me like he just ran outa airspeed, altitude, and ideas all at
once.

Bart

"John_F" wrote in message
...
A good demo of this is LTE loss of tail rotor effectness when doing
360 degree hover turns about a point with a strong wind. If you get
the turning speed just right it is going to do an uncommanded spin for
part of the turn and there is not a darn thing you can do about it
once it starts except ride it out and let it turn till the wind blows
the vortex away and your tail rotor is not in the tail rotor "side
wash" vortex any more.
John

Kevin,

Water always feels like tall grass to me. I'm always so busy trying to make
sure that I don't fubar that I never did a scientific study, and I don't get
low enough to the corrosive stuff to be totally IGE. One thing you really
gotta watch for though is to not "white" yourself out with the sea spray. I
got into that once and it was a tad spooky. It was a lot like dealing with a
snowy LZ; you really have to mind your attitude indicator as well as whats
going on outside.

Bart


I've actually wondered about the over water stuff myself. It's been
drilled into my head that hover IGO over water takes more power, but
other than some surface wave action dissipating the downwash, the
water is, in effect, a solid surface. (Ever jumped off a 40' cliff
into water? It spanks you pretty hard!)

The only water I've hovered over was a small pool near a stream and
while power required was about an inch more MAP than over the hard
pack dirt area we taxied from, I wondered if the tall grass/shrubs
surrounding the pond might have had something to do with that.


...

On Sat, 20 May 2006 16:47:52 -0400, "B4RT"
wrote:

Oh and FWIW; I think the water crash this thread is all about was caused
because the guy came in too hot, got behind the turbine, and couldn't arrest
the sink into the drink. Then the dude was so focused on getting the thing
back outa the water that he did a forward version of a dynamic rollover. If
he'd had a system failure, then why would he try to take off again?


That sounds like a very credible explanation. Especially the
characteristics of the aircraft support that (this is assuming the
Mi-14 to be similar to Mi-8 in this respect). The rotor governing is
probably not very good in the aircraft, in Mi-8 you are not allowed to
raise the lever from idle to full power in less than 10 seconds,
without a big Nr droop.

As a curiosity, the russian helicopters typically do not have a
Torque-meter at all. The transmission is over-engineered to take in
all conditions what the engines can deliver. In Mi-8 the power is
limited by the engine control system, which will limit the fuel flow
and let the rotor droop if too much lever is pulled.

In the final screenshots the landing gear is out. If it came out when
the helicopter hit the water, they must have affected the nose-over.

There was a comment in here about hin getting into low rotor RPM. That
doesn't really happen in a turbine ship unless you're already behind the
engine so far that you can't get the power up (or you have a low-side
governor failure). Chances are the dude pulled pitch too late and saw his
torque-o-meter peg at the redline and his VSI still saying "elevator-down".
Looked to me like he just ran outa airspeed, altitude, and ideas all at
once.

Bart


Mikko

Here is a higher quality video.

http://www.canada.com/globaltv/natio...-9a6241666200#
Click "Watch video of the crash"


It show the take off, the brief hover and the sudden
descent. It then cuts to a different shot
so it is impossible to tell how long the
maching was in the water. It is easy to
assume that there was no delay between the
'landing' and the take off but it is not at all clear.

This video also shows a spout of water
coming out of a hole in the under nose
"radome" as the helicopter rolls over.

Maybe the hard landing for some reason
caused a hole that allowed water to
enter the "radome" and it was this water that
caused the failed take-off.

The "radome" may be a sonar dome. For operation
it will need I guess to be filled with water to effectively
couple the signal into and out of the water.

Is the helicopter supposed to fly with water in the
dome?

This one apparently tried to anyway.

The "radome" may be a sonar dome. For operation
it will need I guess to be filled with water to effectively
couple the signal into and out of the water.

Is the helicopter supposed to fly with water in the
dome?

This one apparently tried to anyway.

The OTHER Kevin in San Diego wrote:
On Thu, 18 May 2006 01:18:37 GMT, boB
wrote:


Of course you can apply collective and slow the decent rate if you have
enough power. The rotor wash does not increase equal to the amount of
power applied. You don't "increases the sink rate" unless there is no
power left.

Every text I've read and every high time (10,000+ hour) heli pilot
I've spoken to disagrees with that statement

My experience on the stick (limited as it is) clearly shows the sink
rate increases as you pull pitch when you're in the downwash.



Kevin, I'm not here to cause problems. In my experience, with only 6000
plus hours, but with most of those hours in the military flying in the
dead man's curve most of the time, I disagree. You don't have the
option to land into the wind or less than a near vertical decent, I have
actually added power to "power out" of the condition. If that was not
true myself, and many other IP's, would have helicopter wreckage all
around us.

Most approaches in the desert of Iraq had to be flown in the dead mans
curve because if you hesitated and leveled for just a second the sand
would blot out any visibility you had. I flew OH-58D helicopters in
Desert Storm and if you know about the aircraft you know most flights in
that helicopter were under NVG's at night. It was not a fun time.


So it's my experience that settling with power must be considered on any
approach that meets the requirements for settling with power the pilot
must be careful but not shy away from the approach if there are no other
alternatives, ie. bad guys in front of you. But my experience is based
on many many approaches, not hours and hours of flying from point A to
Point B

I hate to even write this as I don't want to start any wars. I am
envious of some of the guys in here who have a hell of a lot of
experience with different types of helicopter flying and I read the
messages because there is so much to learn. Learning never ceases.


I like reading the messages from the new guys because some of them
brings back some good memories.

I'm not listing my certificates below to impress anyone. My flying
career is over. I just list them to show I have at least some
experience. And if some think I'm lying, which is possible for anyone
to do, I can scan my license sitting on a piece of paper with something
written that someone here tells me to write. That can't be faked.

I thought I could contribute to the group by telling my experience.
Maybe I should have just kept quiet.

--

Bob


ATP Rotorcraft
Commercial w/instrument SEL

U.S. Army Aviation (retired)
Central Texas - 5NM West of Gray Army Airfield (KGRK)

The OTHER Kevin in San Diego wrote:


I'm not disputing you by any means and your experience FAR outweighs
mine. (I hope to rectify that over the next 10 years or so. hehe)



And I also envy you. So much to do and you'll soon have some great
memories.



You mean you never used the "I'm a helicopter pilot" line to pick up
girls?? hell, if I wasn't married, I'd be waving around that little
blue card along with my Platinum Visa card. hehehe


G I can't think of a time I could have used that line. During the
first couple of years I had one experience where I'm glad I didn't have
one. The short story, got lost somewhere in Ohio in a Cobra, landed to
ask directions, (neither of us had a map) and had a sheriff come over to
us and asked us for our "pilot license". We convinced him that Army
pilots didn't need any stinkin pilot license. Then he saw we were
wearing 38's and asked us for our "gun" license. He finally shut up
after we told him the 40MM Grenade launcher and the mini-gun in the
turret required us to wear firearms. There's more but it would be
boring. Something about walking in to a liquor store wearing the 38's
and walking into a police station carrying the mini-gun. The clerk on
duty disappeared.


You, Bart and Rocky seem to have the most experience here. I'm still
a wet behind the ears newbie, wannabe CFI.. (But I do have that nifty
blue card from the FAA with the Wright brother's pictures on it.
hehehe)



I still have an old dog-eared tan card. Not much point in requesting a
new one. And I do enjoy hearing all the stories told here. I'm fairly
sure you will have many to come.


--

boB
Wing 70

U.S. Army Aviation (retired)
Central Texas - 5NM West of Gray Army Airfield (KGRK)

Common, I want to hear the whole story about not having a map. It makes for
good reading. Infact I'd love hear all the stories you have if you have the
time to write them.

Waiting with bated breath,

Regards

Heath

"boB" wrote in message
...
The OTHER Kevin in San Diego wrote:


I'm not disputing you by any means and your experience FAR outweighs
mine. (I hope to rectify that over the next 10 years or so. hehe)


And I also envy you. So much to do and you'll soon have some great
memories.



You mean you never used the "I'm a helicopter pilot" line to pick up

G I can't think of a time I could have used that line. During the first
couple of years I had one experience where I'm glad I didn't have one. The
short story, got lost somewhere in Ohio in a Cobra, landed to ask
directions, (neither of us had a map) and had a sheriff come over to us
and asked us for our "pilot license". We convinced him that Army pilots
didn't need any stinkin pilot license. Then he saw we were wearing 38's
and asked us for our "gun" license. He finally shut up after we told him
the 40MM Grenade launcher and the mini-gun in the turret required us to
wear firearms. There's more but it would be boring. Something about
walking in to a liquor store wearing the 38's and walking into a police
station carrying the mini-gun. The clerk on duty disappeared.


You, Bart and Rocky seem to have the most experience here. I'm still
a wet behind the ears newbie, wannabe CFI.. (But I do have that nifty
blue card from the FAA with the Wright brother's pictures on it.
hehehe)



I still have an old dog-eared tan card. Not much point in requesting a
new one. And I do enjoy hearing all the stories told here. I'm fairly
sure you will have many to come.


--

boB
Wing 70

U.S. Army Aviation (retired)
Central Texas - 5NM West of Gray Army Airfield (KGRK)



*** Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com ***

Mr Rogers wrote:
Common, I want to hear the whole story about not having a map. It makes for
good reading. Infact I'd love hear all the stories you have if you have the
time to write them.

Waiting with bated breath,

Regards

Heath


Just a bit now, more later if you are interested. We were flying an
AH-1G to be a static display at the Ohio State Fair. We found Columbus
just fine but the directions we got prior to the flight was "It's
located in the North-West part of Columbus and we would see it
immediately when we approached the NW part of the city. We did have a
sectional and landed to ask directions. The Sheriff finally told us
where the Fair was actually located.

As for the guns, we had to remove them each night and secure them at the
police station. We thought it had already been coordinated but we found
out it was at a different Police Station. The on-duty desk clerk took
one look and disappeared from the office. We finally got permission to
secure the guns there each night. It's a bit boring once told but it's
one of my memories from "way back then"

My only advice to Kevin is to always be alert, know that something will
happen that will require his training to kick in and there will be some
memories that he will never forget.

But Kevin.... I feel for you about paying the loan back. And tell you
there are hour building jobs out there. At Papillon Grand Canyon
Helicopters I saw a female get hired with only R22 time and going to the
Bell course on the B206 turbine helicopter class. I never asked about
her certificate and hours but it couldn't be too many hours. Flying the
Canyon gets SO boring but definitely is an hour builder.

PS... Send a picture with your resume. For some reason I found out I
was hired because I did send the picture. It at least causes the Chief
Pilot to look twice and may be the difference between getting hired or not.

--

boB
Wing 70

U.S. Army Aviation (retired)
Central Texas - 5NM West of Gray Army Airfield (KGRK)