V-4 Missile Possibilities

Not possible at all at that time. The V-1 (aka Fi-103, FZG-76) took
years to develop. Rheinbote was started in 1943. One is a short range
artillery rocket, the other a long range flying bomb meant to hit
Sweden. There's no comparison between the two other than you thinking
it is a derivative of the Rheinbote due to (I assume) general
appearance without the ramjet. BTW, an engineer cannot simply strap on
an experimental ramjet onto a Rheinbote-like missile, add wings, and
hope it makes it to Sweden.

No, but they could strap on a ram jet and wings to see how much range
they could get, and develop from there. Considering how much impulse
they got out of the first stage of the Rheinbote, I'm suprised there
wasn't more R&D done with the system. Using a ramjet instead of another
stage or two(or three) would seem to be a logical growth direction. And
the arti guys were no entirely unaware of ramjets, with the R&D done
with ramjet shells and such.

But to have this "V-4" spring up out of nowhere, without any R&D trail
or name attached to its manufacture seems a bit iffy. If it was purpose
designed, then why not a better configuration? A better length/diameter
ratio or tapered rear fuselage would have been obvious. Now, a lack of
taper could be to accommodate a tail mounted rocket motor to supplement
the catapult and rato strap ons. But unless the was based on something
else, the length/diameter ratio seems off.

On Misdroy they had catapults aimed
towards Sweden, not the West. The ramps were for the V-4. Misdroy was
also the testing ground for the long-range V-3 weapon which fired
shells at Luxembourg. The Rheinbote, OTOH, was made by
Rheinmetall-Borsig and used to shell Antwerp in Nov '44- 220 being
fired. Its maximum range was 135 miles. No Rheinbote was on Misdroy.
Misdroy was the testing ground for long-range missiles and shells.

Where was "Misdroy"? My refs mention it too, but can't find it on a map.


For that matter, the "V-4" was likely little more than a vaporware
threat rather than a credible piece of hardware.

It wouldn't make any sense to threaten a neutral nation like Sweden
with a non-existant weapon in 1945 with the Allies closing in on
Germany. If you remember postwar it was Sweden that complained about
the "Ghost Rockets" coming from the same region. Most "Ghost Rockets"
were described as long cigar-shaped burning objects. These were
suspected of being Russian modified extended-body V-1s but looking at
the V-4... it looks like a strong possibility, especially if a Swede
saw it from below, the ramjet unseen burning above the body.

I don't know about "ghost rockets" but at least one A-4 ended up in that
direction. But in general, the whole threaten Sweden things soulds more
than a bit iffy, and given the nature of the time, Germany did have all
kinds of scary things so even a bluff would have had weight, on the one
hand, and on the other, the Swedes would have known that the German's
days were numbered and even a wonder weapon threat would have seemed a
bit toothless.
Even if some kind of launch rig was built, that doesn't mean there as
anything to launch, other than, perhaps, more V-1s.

On 6 Jan 2004 18:27:37 -0800, (robert arndt) wrote:

Reality check time Rob, the Nazis lost, Hitler is dead, and the "V-4"
never flew. I know that all of these facts just break your little Nazi loving
heart, but they are facts.

Al Minyard

Hey Al, take a trip to Misdroy... but don't trip on the remnants of
the launch catapults for the V-4, which are not pointing West. I guess
your logic suggests that the Germans were just firing missiles out
into the Baltic for practice and that the diplomatic threat to Sweden
in 1945 was just a ruse (ignoring the fact that Germany depended on
Sweden's iron ore for vital war production).
But that's you Al, in a nutshell... someone who prefers inaccurate
history book "official histories" as opposed to the truth.
Ignorance is bliss, so be happy

Rob

The V4 was vapor ware. It never existed.

Al Minyard

On 6 Jan 2004 18:27:37 -0800, (robert arndt) wrote:

Reality check time Rob, the Nazis lost, Hitler is dead, and the "V-4"
never flew. I know that all of these facts just break your little Nazi loving
heart, but they are facts.

Al Minyard

Hey Al, take a trip to Misdroy... but don't trip on the remnants of
the launch catapults for the V-4, which are not pointing West. I guess
your logic suggests that the Germans were just firing missiles out
into the Baltic for practice and that the diplomatic threat to Sweden
in 1945 was just a ruse (ignoring the fact that Germany depended on
Sweden's iron ore for vital war production).
But that's you Al, in a nutshell... someone who prefers inaccurate
history book "official histories" as opposed to the truth.
Ignorance is bliss, so be happy

Rob

You are a complete nazi loon.

Al Minyard

Uzytkownik "steve gallacci" napisal w wiadomosci
...
[snip...]

No Rheinbote was on Misdroy.
Misdroy was the testing ground for long-range missiles and shells.

Where was "Misdroy"? My refs mention it too, but can't find it on a map.

You cannot find this place if you didn't have BdV (Bund der Vertriebener)
approved maps. Try finding Miedzyzdroje (or better Miedzyzdroje), which is
proper Polish name for this city located on Wolin island East of Swinoujscie
(Swinemuende) and North of Szczecin (Stettin). If you are a little bit
nostalgic you can see a strange German-Polish site http://www.misdroy.de/ or
even buy pre-war photos
http://www.sammler-bonn.de/online-sh...pommern/misdro
y/misdroy.htm.

[snip...]

Regards
JasiekS
Warsaw, Poland

Eyeballing those pictures of the As044 and the Pabst ramjet - IMHO the
AS044 is a pulse jet (else why the square grilled inlet?) and the
Pabst ramjet is a neat way to convert fuel into smoke and noise. Its
specific fuel consumption (Kg fuel/newton/hr) must have been very high
indeed. I believe the ramjet fighter as pictured would have had a
range even less than that of the Me163b. (Little volume for fuel.)
Doubtless why it never made it off the sketch board.
Walt BJ

(WaltBJ) wrote in message . com...
Eyeballing those pictures of the As044 and the Pabst ramjet - IMHO the
AS044 is a pulse jet (else why the square grilled inlet?) and the
Pabst ramjet is a neat way to convert fuel into smoke and noise. Its
specific fuel consumption (Kg fuel/newton/hr) must have been very high
indeed. I believe the ramjet fighter as pictured would have had a
range even less than that of the Me163b. (Little volume for fuel.)
Doubtless why it never made it off the sketch board.
Walt BJ

Walt,

A pulsejet is a form of ramjet except that the combustion is
intermittent rather than continuous. The pulsejet uses spring loaded
shutter valves that open and close for the imtermittent pulse... but
is still a ramjet that has to be launched into the air by some means
other than the engine for it to work.
The Germans had both the As044 and Jumo 226 pulsejets under
development at the end of the war- both were investigated by the
Russians from '45-'47.

Rob

(WaltBJ) wrote in message . com...
Eyeballing those pictures of the As044 and the Pabst ramjet - IMHO the
AS044 is a pulse jet (else why the square grilled inlet?) and the
Pabst ramjet is a neat way to convert fuel into smoke and noise. Its
specific fuel consumption (Kg fuel/newton/hr) must have been very high
indeed. I believe the ramjet fighter as pictured would have had a
range even less than that of the Me163b. (Little volume for fuel.)
Doubtless why it never made it off the sketch board.
Walt BJ

Walt,

As for the Fw Ta 283 range question: the plane had enough fuel (1000+
liters) for 40 minutes of sustained flight. It's climb would have been
around 17,500 fpm using the Walter rocket motor in the tail plus the
two ramjets. So you would have less than two minutes of climb to get
over the bomber stream and then dive down for the attack. I doubt the
escort fighters would have been able to do anything about it until the
Ta 283 had to land. More of the aircraft would have probably been lost
to ground accidents as the Ta 283 had very narrow track landing gear.

Rob

On 16 Jan 2004 22:22:15 -0800, (robert arndt) wrote:

(WaltBJ) wrote in message . com...
Eyeballing those pictures of the As044 and the Pabst ramjet - IMHO the
AS044 is a pulse jet (else why the square grilled inlet?) and the
Pabst ramjet is a neat way to convert fuel into smoke and noise. Its
specific fuel consumption (Kg fuel/newton/hr) must have been very high
indeed. I believe the ramjet fighter as pictured would have had a
range even less than that of the Me163b. (Little volume for fuel.)
Doubtless why it never made it off the sketch board.
Walt BJ

Walt,

As for the Fw Ta 283 range question: the plane had enough fuel (1000+
liters) for 40 minutes of sustained flight. It's climb would have been
around 17,500 fpm using the Walter rocket motor in the tail plus the
two ramjets. So you would have less than two minutes of climb to get
over the bomber stream and then dive down for the attack. I doubt the
escort fighters would have been able to do anything about it until the
Ta 283 had to land. More of the aircraft would have probably been lost
to ground accidents as the Ta 283 had very narrow track landing gear.

Rob

Well, the V-1 used the same type of pulse jet, and they were routinely
shot down. The pulse jet was a dead end technology.

And it is NOT a form of "ram jet".

Al Minyard

Alan Minyard wrote in message . ..
On 16 Jan 2004 22:22:15 -0800, (robert arndt) wrote:

(WaltBJ) wrote in message . com...
Eyeballing those pictures of the As044 and the Pabst ramjet - IMHO the
AS044 is a pulse jet (else why the square grilled inlet?) and the
Pabst ramjet is a neat way to convert fuel into smoke and noise. Its
specific fuel consumption (Kg fuel/newton/hr) must have been very high
indeed. I believe the ramjet fighter as pictured would have had a
range even less than that of the Me163b. (Little volume for fuel.)
Doubtless why it never made it off the sketch board.
Walt BJ

Walt,

As for the Fw Ta 283 range question: the plane had enough fuel (1000+
liters) for 40 minutes of sustained flight. It's climb would have been
around 17,500 fpm using the Walter rocket motor in the tail plus the
two ramjets. So you would have less than two minutes of climb to get
over the bomber stream and then dive down for the attack. I doubt the
escort fighters would have been able to do anything about it until the
Ta 283 had to land. More of the aircraft would have probably been lost
to ground accidents as the Ta 283 had very narrow track landing gear.

Rob

Well, the V-1 used the same type of pulse jet, and they were routinely
shot down. The pulse jet was a dead end technology.

And it is NOT a form of "ram jet".

Al Minyard

Al, you must be really stupid. The pulse jet isn't dead, ever heard of
the exotic PDW (Pulse Detonation Wave) engines that have been tested
in the '90s forward? Same operation except for the fuel being ignited
by timed pulse laser.
Second, the Fw TA 283 used both a Walter rocket motor in the tail and
two Pabst ramjets which were far superior to the As014 or As044
pulsejets.
Third, the pulsejet IS a form of ramjet, with intermittent combustion
vs continuous. It cannot operate until it reaches a certain airspeed.
In the Ta 283 this would be accomplished by the Walter rocket in the
tail.

Rob

"robert arndt" wrote in message
om...

Third, the pulsejet IS a form of ramjet, with intermittent combustion
vs continuous. It cannot operate until it reaches a certain airspeed.
In the Ta 283 this would be accomplished by the Walter rocket in the
tail.


This is incorrect

A pulsejet CAN work at zero airspeed as long as you provide
a good stream of air into the intake at lightup. The launch procedure
for the V-1 required the pulse jet to be started on the ground using
air from a fan or compressor

At least one company makes a scaled down copy of the Argus
engine for propelling model aircraft, the strating instructions
are as follows

"To start the engine a pulsed high voltage supply usually from a Ford T
coils is used to provide a constant stream of sparks at the spark plug and
compressed air from a tank or pump is fed to the air attachment on the
flowjector. Fuel is drawn into the head by the air stream which also opens
the valve and lets the fuel air mixture into the pipe. Here it encounters
the spark and burns in a sharp pop. This rapid increase in pressure closes
the valve. The expanding gas has only one place to go, out the back of the
pipe. The momentum of the gas leaving the pipe creates a less than
atmospheric pressure in the combustion chamber. ( In terms of the pressure
waves in the engine the compression wave produced by the combustion races
down the pipe, it hits the open end of the pipe and is reflected as a
rarefaction wave and travels back to the combustion chamber) Atmospheric
pressure pushes open the valves and a fresh fuel-air mixture enters the
combustion chamber. This is then ignited by residual combustion from the
first pulse and the process repeats. This repeats at 230 times a second and
makes the most incredible noise!!

The compressed air and spark source are disconnected and the engine roars
away on its own.

The extreme heat means that the plane should be moving very quickly, within
a few seconds of startup to get a good cooling airflow over the pipe ( also
helps cool the plane!!)."

Keith