Glide computer review

On Dec 4, 10:53*am, Itsaplane wrote:
I'm looking for a ship to buy and find that I don't have much
perspective in evaluating various glide computers. *Is there an
existing and comprehensive glide computer review?

My doubtlessly flawed view of the glide computer universe divides
things into two main groups - panel mounted and PDA-based. *Another
way to divide things might be between moving map and non-moving map
systems. *I'm sure the type of flying is an important in this choice -
contests vs. general XC flying for example.

At the least, I'm hoping for some guidance to distinguish the
Cambridge 302 and the Ilec SN-10B. *What else deserves to be
evaluated? *Also, are things moving in a particular direction -- like
large super bright (vs. PDA's) built in displays? *Having components
that would be useful for doing that later would be plus.

I value: ease of use, readability in sunlight, the ability to monitor
multiple landing options simultaneously, no 250 turn point limitation
(L-Nav), and reliable wind data. *I like to fly into areas I've never
been to before and haven't done contests - but might.

Thanks to all who will take a crack at this,

Eric
ER

Asking to compare a 302 and an SN-10 is like comparing apples and
oranges. Most 302s will be used with PDAs or PNAs and those that have
303s installed are used as back-ups to the PDA. So the question is
more comparing flight computer software to the SN-10 than the 302 per
se.

There for support and features and a whole variety of reasons I would
look at SeeYou Mobile or XCSoar.

But instead of worrying about any of this go buy a glider. If you
happen to find two otherwise identical gliders and the significant
difference is the flight computer then you might have a problem. Worry
about that then. Eitherway with any leading system, 302, SN10B,
clearnav, etc you can fly with it for a while and see if you like them
and sell the unit on the used market fairly readilly so in the big
picture it is probably not a significant financial risk. Whatever you
buy is unlikely to have the panel layout exactly as you will want so
to be safe factor in a new panel blank and labour to tweek the layout,
maybe after you have flown for a while.

Of course if this was really important I know where you can go try out
and fly the same model glider you are considering with some of these
instruments...

Darryl

My choice: SN-10 as primary glide/task computer/vario (with it's own
dedicated Garmin hockey-puck GPS hardwired in). Backup (on separate
battery system) is my IGC logger (a Themi) driving a PDA running
SeeYou Mobile, used mainly to show airspace, the current task, and
reachable airports (and ridges if useful).

SN-10 map page is OK as a backup but does not approach the utility of
the PDA display. SYM allows setting up a simple easy to see moving
map with nice big fonts and easy to see lines - visible even in bright
Arizona sunlight.

PDA also can download the logger files from the SN10 and Themi (via
appropriate DOS emulator software - a bit of a pain to setup but does
work).

302A look nice but too expensive for a backup vario. If i win the
lottery, though, it would replace the Themi and have the advantage of
a TE vario that doesn't rely on the vulnerable TE probe.

Kirk
66

On Dec 5, 5:01*pm, "kirk.stant" wrote:
My choice: *SN-10 as primary glide/task computer/vario (with it's own
dedicated Garmin hockey-puck GPS hardwired in). *Backup (on separate
battery system) is my IGC logger (a Themi) driving a PDA running
SeeYou Mobile, used mainly to show airspace, the current task, and
reachable airports (and ridges if useful).

SN-10 map page is OK as a backup but does not approach the utility of
the PDA display. *SYM allows setting up a simple easy to see moving
map with nice big fonts and easy to see lines - visible even in bright
Arizona sunlight.

PDA also can download the logger files from the SN10 and Themi (via
appropriate DOS emulator software - a bit of a pain to setup but does
work).

302A look nice but too expensive for a backup vario. *If i win the
lottery, though, it would replace the Themi and have the advantage of
a TE vario that doesn't rely on the vulnerable TE probe.

Kirk
66

302A is only a logger. The 302 is the version with the logger and
vario.

Here's an observation from a low-timer for what it's worth.

I'm a relatively new cross-country pilot. I have a 302/303 in my ship.
That equipment has been absolutely perfect for my transition from
local flying to cross-country flying. I did fly a bit with a PDA/PNA
connected to it, but for my purposes (non-racing), the 303 simply
blows away the PDA/PNA. The 303 is super-simple to use, easy to read
(even in sunlight) and quick to get the info you need. Flying with the
PDA required too much "eye time" for my comfort level. Not to mention
the horrible readability in sunlight (I use SeeYou Mobile). The
302/303 gives me secure flight recording, glide computation, wind,
navigation, landing options and an excellent vario. It's small and
fully self-contained with a built-in GPS receiver. The fact that it's
"expandable" is a big plus. It was nice to be able to try out the PDA/
PNA even though I didn't care for them. I could certainly add on a
ClearNav or other similar "high-end" moving map device if I wanted.
Just plug it in and go. I just don't really have the need for a moving
map in the cockpit at this point.

One other thing regarding PDA compatibility. I don't need a laptop at
the field to download my flight logs or upload tasks/waypoints. I
simply connect my PDA, upload or download and take the PDA back home
with me. Very convenient.


Good luck in your search,
Dave



On Dec 4, 12:53*pm, Itsaplane wrote:
I'm looking for a ship to buy and find that I don't have much
perspective in evaluating various glide computers. *Is there an
existing and comprehensive glide computer review?

My doubtlessly flawed view of the glide computer universe divides
things into two main groups - panel mounted and PDA-based. *Another
way to divide things might be between moving map and non-moving map
systems. *I'm sure the type of flying is an important in this choice -
contests vs. general XC flying for example.

At the least, I'm hoping for some guidance to distinguish the
Cambridge 302 and the Ilec SN-10B. *What else deserves to be
evaluated? *Also, are things moving in a particular direction -- like
large super bright (vs. PDA's) built in displays? *Having components
that would be useful for doing that later would be plus.

I value: ease of use, readability in sunlight, the ability to monitor
multiple landing options simultaneously, no 250 turn point limitation
(L-Nav), and reliable wind data. *I like to fly into areas I've never
been to before and haven't done contests - but might.

Thanks to all who will take a crack at this,

Eric
ER

On Dec 5, 6:26*pm, mike wrote:
On Dec 5, 5:01*pm, "kirk.stant" wrote:





My choice: *SN-10 as primary glide/task computer/vario (with it's own
dedicated Garmin hockey-puck GPS hardwired in). *Backup (on separate
battery system) is my IGC logger (a Themi) driving a PDA running
SeeYou Mobile, used mainly to show airspace, the current task, and
reachable airports (and ridges if useful).

SN-10 map page is OK as a backup but does not approach the utility of
the PDA display. *SYM allows setting up a simple easy to see moving
map with nice big fonts and easy to see lines - visible even in bright
Arizona sunlight.

PDA also can download the logger files from the SN10 and Themi (via
appropriate DOS emulator software - a bit of a pain to setup but does
work).

302A look nice but too expensive for a backup vario. *If i win the
lottery, though, it would replace the Themi and have the advantage of
a TE vario that doesn't rely on the vulnerable TE probe.

Kirk
66

302A is only a logger. The 302 is the version with the logger and
vario.

Correct, I meant the 302 (vario with logger).

Kirk

I flew with PDA only for a few years before adding a SN10B, to me the SN10
is a big improvement. The display is *always* readable at a glance, it
*always* works when I turn it on, and there are *no* settings to fiddle with
before take off. I now use the PDA as a moving map and the SN10 for
everything else. I hardly have to touch anything on the PDA or switch pages
at the SN10 during flight (XC, no competition flying), the same would be
true with a Zander, LX, or any similar system.

After landing I use the PDA to read my flights from the logger to a memory
card, so no need to bring a laptop to the airfield. I guess (but haven´t
tried yet) I could also use the PDA to transfer airspace and waypoint data
to the rather small (compared to a PDA) SN10 memory.

Michael

Alright, I'll be the heretic in the group:

I find that a well-set-up PDA is much better than most of the flight
computers out there!

Many of the panel-mounted computers use text and/or point-and-line
graphics; which, while visible in sunlight, don't give you nearly as
good of an idea where you are as a moving map does. Maybe its because
I'm younger than the average US glider pilot (sorry, not my fault) and
I've grown up around computers and graphics, but I find moving-map
symbology (with a couple of choice text items) MUCH easier to
interpret at a glance, compared to the "screen full of text" approach
of many glide computers. And some brain studies have proven that
simple colors and shapes can be interpreted faster than text (letters
are shapes as well; but shapes that need to get shuffled off to the
linguistic part of the brain, IIRC).

I think one of the problems is that most people pull a PDA out of the
box, load up a flight program like XCSoar (my favorite) or SeeYou, and
immediately compare it to the panel-mounted flight computers in top
gliders. The issue is that the major PDA systems are far more
customizable. IF people would take the time to tweak the PDA-based
programs to display the information they want and in the style that
they like, I think the overall opinion of these solutions would go up
quite a bit!

I also find the menu system and feature navigation in most panel-
mounted flight computers is a NIGHTMARE. As a programmer with a lot
of experience in webpages and other user-interfaces, these systems
drive me up a WALL! The designers obviously didn't put a whole lot of
thought into the fact that people will be fiddling with these things
while _flying_. Since the flying is the more important part, some
focus should have been put on easy navigation to the most important
items in an unambiguous manner. IMHO, its a bad design to have 1
button perform 4 or 5 functions depending on how you hold it down or
in what sequence you press it!

They're getting better with the most recent generations of panel-
mounted computers, but a lot of the older/used units on the market
worry me... They require the most "heads-down" time to use, but are
the cheapest and therefore the most likely items to be used by the
least experienced pilots.... Seems like a BAD combo, to me!

OK, enough ranting/opinionating... The bottom line is that neither
PDAs nor Panel-mounted solutions are a silver-bullet. Anyone with
interest in them should SPEND SOME TIME fiddling with a variety of
solutions to find out what feels best to them - even if its just on
the ground with some buddies' gliders. Be sure to ask about how each
system can be customized - in case your idea of the perfect setup
differs from your buddies! You want to make apples-to-apples
comparisons, afterall.

--Noel

Oh, and I got sidetracked before making the sequels; but here's a
video on XCSoar that I put together a long time ago:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swBB_ggqYFA

Maybe someday soon I'll put together a couple of videos on task-flying
and configuring the display...

--Noel

"noel.wade" wrote in message ...
Oh, and I got sidetracked before making the sequels; but here's a
video on XCSoar that I put together a long time ago:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swBB_ggqYFA

Maybe someday soon I'll put together a couple of videos on task-flying
and configuring the display...


Noel,

Thank you for the XCSoar demo video.

For several years I have been flying with various version of Glide Navigator in the generic mode. I recently purchase a used Borgelt B50 with all the mods. To exploit the B50 I need software that would read the Borgelt vario record. Sadly GN II only reads Cambridge records.

So my search for software that would support the B50 led me to XCSoar. I flew a couple flights running it on a Aero 1550 and realized being designed for color, the shades of gray on the B/W screen did not "cut it." So I now am the owner of a used iPaq hx4700.

I can hardly wait until spring when I can perform the test flights necessary to determine the B-50 and XCSoar polar setting for my HP-14.

Again, I found the video very helpful.

Wayne
http://www.soaridaho.com/

On Dec 7, 2:35*pm, "Wayne Paul" wrote:
"noel.wade" wrote in ...
Oh, and I got sidetracked before making the sequels; but here's a
video on XCSoar that I put together a long time ago:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swBB_ggqYFA

Maybe someday soon I'll put together a couple of videos on task-flying
and configuring the display...

Noel,

Thank you for the XCSoar demo video. *

For several years I have been flying with various version of Glide Navigator in the generic mode. *I recently purchase a used Borgelt B50 with all the mods. *To exploit the B50 I need software that would read the Borgelt vario record. *Sadly GN II only reads Cambridge records.

So my search for software that would support the B50 led me to XCSoar. *I flew a couple flights running it on a Aero 1550 and realized being designed for color, the shades of gray on the B/W screen did not "cut it." *So I now am the owner of a used iPaq hx4700.

I can hardly wait until spring when I can perform the test flights necessary to determine the B-50 and XCSoar polar setting for my HP-14.

Again, I found the video very helpful.

Waynehttp://www.soaridaho.com/

I loaded XCSoar on a spare PDA a couple weeks ago and won't get to fly
with it for some months. In simulator, and in a cockpit ground test,
it looks *great* for recreational flying. It doesn't do several
things that are needed for modern competition rules (US), but I am
hopeful that we can lean on the developers to add the necessary
capabilities. It's nothing huge.

-Evan Ludeman / T8