A Call to Arms from Richard VanGrunsven

"cavelamb himself" wrote in message ...
Morgans wrote:
"cavelamb himself" wrote


Actually, jst to keep the record straight, you CAN buy an X-AB airplane.
But the biulder can not build and register another of the same kind.


Really? Where did you get that information? Do you know of a case where a
builder was denied the second airplane's airworthiness permit?

That was pretty common interpretation of this mess when I was a kid.

Back when FAA was doing "pre-close" inspections, they were a lot more
involved in the process.


Ahhh, back in the days before entitlements really started sinking our govment and we truly received services...

In rec.aviation.piloting WJRFlyBoy wrote:
On Sat, 08 Mar 2008 06:45:03 GMT, wrote:

In rec.aviation.piloting WJRFlyBoy wrote:

Yet I can't buy a completely built kit/plans plane.

Sure you can.

See any airplanes for sale web site.

You just can't buy one and have the same privilges as the original builder.

--
Jim Pennino

Ok, what rights do I lose and why do I lose them?

The original builder can do any maintenance or modification he desires
while the buyer has to follow the same rules as if he had bought a
Cessna or Piper.

You lose those rights because that is the rule which is based on the
presumption that if you can build it, you can maintain it.

--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

wrote in message ...

The original builder can do any maintenance or modification he desires
while the buyer has to follow the same rules as if he had bought a
Cessna or Piper.



Not true...

In rec.aviation.piloting Blueskies wrote:

wrote in message ...

The original builder can do any maintenance or modification he desires
while the buyer has to follow the same rules as if he had bought a
Cessna or Piper.



Not true...

Yeah, in retrospect I realized that.

Without multiple pages of details, the purchaser of a home built can
do less than the builder, but more than the buyer of a Cessna.

--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

On Mar 8, 12:45*pm, wrote:
The original builder can do any maintenance or modification he desires
while the buyer has to follow the same rules as if he had bought a
Cessna or Piper.

Not true. It's actually very simple: Anyone can do anything to any
homebuilt, except sign off the annual condition inspection. That is
the only privilege conferred by the Repairman certificate. Someone
who doesn't hold the Repairman certificate for the particular plane in
question must have the annual condition inspection signed off by an
A&P. Any A&P will do; no IA required.

Ken

On Sat, 8 Mar 2008 10:12:35 +0000 (UTC), Bertie the Bunyip wrote:

Yet I can't buy a completely built kit/plans plane.

Sure you can.

See any airplanes for sale web site.

You just can't buy one and have the same privilges as the original
builder.

--
Jim Pennino

Ok, what rights do I lose and why do I lose them?

the origianl builder is the manufacturer. He can effect any maintenance
or repeair on the airplane he likes...You buy it , you can't.

Th ereason is pretty obvious. He has demonstrated he knows what he is
doing and has effectively been issued a resticted airframe or airframe
and powerplant licence.

Bertie

The right to self-maintain is no loss of right for me. They call the police
when I simply look at a power tool. The ability to maintain isn't directly
tied to the ability to install (I've dropped engines, I couldn't tune a
fork).
--
Remove numbers for gmail and for God's sake it ain't "gee" either!

WJRFlyBoy wrote in
:

On Sat, 8 Mar 2008 10:12:35 +0000 (UTC), Bertie the Bunyip wrote:

Yet I can't buy a completely built kit/plans plane.

Sure you can.

See any airplanes for sale web site.

You just can't buy one and have the same privilges as the original
builder.

--
Jim Pennino

Ok, what rights do I lose and why do I lose them?

the origianl builder is the manufacturer. He can effect any
maintenance or repeair on the airplane he likes...You buy it , you
can't.

Th ereason is pretty obvious. He has demonstrated he knows what he is
doing and has effectively been issued a resticted airframe or
airframe and powerplant licence.

Bertie

The right to self-maintain is no loss of right for me. They call the
police when I simply look at a power tool. The ability to maintain
isn't directly tied to the ability to install (I've dropped engines, I
couldn't tune a fork).



He he


Bertie

On Sat, 08 Mar 2008 01:29:05 -0600, cavelamb himself wrote:

Cessna goes to China to get the Skyscraper at a reasonable price. Yet we
have USA built planes off better value that are restricted from my purchase
because I can't flip fiberglass?


Actually, jst to keep the record straight, you CAN buy an X-AB airplane.
But the biulder can not build and register another of the same kind.

That puts him in unfair competition with the certified manufacturers
who went to the expense and trouble to certify their airplanes.

Appreciate the comment. If certification has value, why does this put him
in unfair competition?

Because it takes time and money.

Which they (Cessna in this e.g.) reclaim in a higher price and profit. If
not, then the value of certification is seriously in question.

And "flipping" fiber is a racing term for Corvette rebuilds.

Your troll,

WJRFlyboy
--
Remove numbers for gmail and for God's sake it ain't "gee" either!

On Sat, 8 Mar 2008 10:18:02 +0000 (UTC), Bertie the Bunyip wrote:

Actually, jst to keep the record straight, you CAN buy an X-AB
airplane. But the biulder can not build and register another of the
same kind.

That puts him in unfair competition with the certified manufacturers
who went to the expense and trouble to certify their airplanes.

Appreciate the comment. If certification has value, why does this put
him in unfair competition?

Because it cost many millions to certify an airplane. It doesn;'t cost
anything to kit a homebuilt. We're not just talking about RVs here. There
are some major crooks and nutjobs out there selling dreams. Peopkle have
died in them. Now, if you want to build one of these yourself, and you can
build anything you want, BTW, the FAA really only looks to see if it was
put together properly, then off you go and more power to you. That's
experimenting. But to try and sell some of these things as capable
airplanes would be criminal. I think some of the kitplanes around are
crimes against nature as it is, but there ya go..

OK, so the FAA allows these planes under the guise of "experimental" they
certify planes and then there are experimental planes that are as good or
better than the certified planes (not talking engines whose
"certifications" are all over the place).

Is that about right?

If so, 1) where do you find the output which points to "good" kit/plan
planes and 2) what good is the FAA doing (other than restricting the good
builds for market related purposes)?

The RVs could probably be certified pretty easily. A couple of air forces
are even using them as trainers and there have been thousands built, so a
lot of th eR&D is already done.


--
Remove numbers for gmail and for God's sake it ain't "gee" either!

On Sat, 08 Mar 2008 09:46:15 -0600, cavelamb himself wrote:

Morgans wrote:
"cavelamb himself" wrote

Actually, jst to keep the record straight, you CAN buy an X-AB airplane.
But the biulder can not build and register another of the same kind.

Really? Where did you get that information? Do you know of a case where a
builder was denied the second airplane's airworthiness permit?

That was pretty common interpretation of this mess when I was a kid.

Back when FAA was doing "pre-close" inspections, they were a lot more
involved in the process.

I humbly suggest that if you are going to come in here with that handle,
you need to make a much more active effort at educating yourself.

This is a very technical forum.

And there are some very talented and knowledgeable people who hang here.

They mostly don't care for trolls.

For what it's worth...

WJRFlyboy ))
--
Remove numbers for gmail and for God's sake it ain't "gee" either!