Medal Winners: Air Traffic Control Tapes

"Roger" wrote in message
...
No, CO2 does not poison you. Like the pillow over a head/face it can
cut off the air, but it is not a poison. It only mechanically
prevents you from breathing air with O2 in it.

Actually, it does more than that. The CO2 level in your blood affects your
breathing reflex, and while some elevation is what helps you know to take
another breath, too much can interfere with your breathing in other ways.

If anything, CO is more of a "mechanical blockage", because "all" it does is
bind to the blood cells, preventing them from carrying O2. CO2 actually
messes with your body's natural breathing control.

I wouldn't really call either a "poison", but it seems to me that the words
has been used pretty loosely by everyone involved in this thread.
Nit-picking about whether either CO or CO2 seems fruitless.

Pete

Roger wrote:
On Tue, 31 Jan 2006 16:20:43 -0500, "Jeff Shirton"
wrote:

"B A R R Y" wrote in message
...

Don't believe you have much of a case for CO 2 poisoning.
It is CO that is the poison!!!
Apparently you never saw Apollo 13.
I think what he's trying to imply is that CO poisons, CO2 simply
displaces breathable air.
Carbon monoxide is poisonous.
Carbon dioxide is poisonous.

Indeed, the distinction you are trying to make doesn't apply,
since CO "simply displaces breathable air" in hemoglobin.

Both can eventually kill you, but in different ways.
Yes, by *poisoning* you.

No, CO2 does not poison you. Like the pillow over a head/face it can
cut off the air, but it is not a poison. It only mechanically
prevents you from breathing air with O2 in it. Remove the CO2 and you
can breath just fine...if you can still breathe. Remove the CO and
you still need treatment as the blood still will not cary O2.
A poison works chemically on the body in one way or another.

Fresh air and exercise are good for refreshing after CO2, but exercise
can kill after CO exposure.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

IIRC CO complexes the hemoglobin leading to a clot. The damage is not
reversible but after a lot of time in fresh air the body will clear out
the damaged hemoglobin. That's much different than CO2.

"Jeff Shirton" wrote in message



If you don't believe me, simply do a Google search of
"carbon dioxide" "poison", and see for yourself...

OK. From that Google search:

http://www-formal.stanford.edu/jmc/progress/co2.html
"Carbon monoxide CO, unlike CO2, is a bad poison. ... Carbon monoxide binds
very strongly to the iron in the hemoglobin in the blood. ... Because carbon
monoxide binds to hemoglobin so strongly, you can be poisoned by carbon
monoxide even at very low concentrations..."

http://www.factmonster.com/ce6/sci/A0810371.html
"It [carbon dioxide] does not burn, and under normal conditions it is
stable, inert and nontoxic. ... Although it [carbon dioxide] is not a
poison, it can cause death by suffocation if inhaled in large amounts."

http://www.prn2.usm.my/mainsite/bull...995/nst13.html
"Chemical asphyxiants - Carbon monoxide, hydrogen, cyanide, nitrites,
hydrogen sulphides. ... Simple asphyxiants are physiolocigal inert. ...
Victims exposed to them will suffer from lack of oxygen. Carbon dioxide and
methane are classic examples of simple asphyxiant. Chemical asphyxiants, on
the other hand, interfere with the body's ability to utilise oxygen, They
either prevent oxygen delivery (such as carbon monoxide and hydrogen
sulphide)..."

There are many others saying that CO is a poison while CO2 is not.

--
John T
http://tknowlogy.com/TknoFlyer
Reduce spam. Use Sender Policy Framework: http://spf.pobox.com
____________________

Try searching on the terms "carbon dioxide poisoning" and
"Hypercapnia" instaid. CO2 is toxic but is nowhere near as toxic as CO.
CO2 can act as a simple asphyxiant and kill by displacing oxygen or it
can kill from its toxic effects. It's much more likely to kill by
asphyxiation. It generally takes some unusual circumstances to
encounter its toxic effects and it takes a fair amount of time for
these effects to become dangerous. This is probably why it's not
usually considered a poison, usually it will suffocate you long before
it can poison you. CO will nearly always kill from its toxic effects
rather than simple asphyxiation because there is rarely enough of it
around to displace much oxygen in the atmosphere. CO2 poisoning is
usually only a concern if you are breathing a canned atmosphere with
plenty of oxygen but no way to get rid of the CO2.

On 2 Feb 2006 05:06:53 -0800, "Bryan Martin"
wrote:

Try searching on the terms "carbon dioxide poisoning" and
"Hypercapnia" instaid. CO2 is toxic but is nowhere near as toxic as CO.
CO2 can act as a simple asphyxiant and kill by displacing oxygen or it
can kill from its toxic effects. It's much more likely to kill by
asphyxiation. It generally takes some unusual circumstances to
encounter its toxic effects and it takes a fair amount of time for
these effects to become dangerous. This is probably why it's not
usually considered a poison, usually it will suffocate you long before
it can poison you. CO will nearly always kill from its toxic effects
rather than simple asphyxiation because there is rarely enough of it
around to displace much oxygen in the atmosphere. CO2 poisoning is
usually only a concern if you are breathing a canned atmosphere with
plenty of oxygen but no way to get rid of the CO2.

carbon monoxide is about 210 times as active in binding with
hemoglobin as oxygen. carbon monoxide can react out all of your
hemoglobin so that no oxygen transport occurs and you die of
asphyxiation. (only about 10% of oxygen dissolves in plasma and that
isnt enough to keep you alive)

carbon dioxide in the blood forms carbonic acid and can alter the
blood pH enough to denature enzyme reactions in the body.
(a lot of the enzymes are curled up long molecules that are only
chemically active when certain parts of molecular loops are in near
proximity. when denatured through pH or temperature they straighten
out and the chemical processes they are involved with simply stop.)

Stealth pilot

"Stealth Pilot" wrote in message ...
snip

carbon dioxide in the blood forms carbonic acid and can alter the
blood pH enough to denature enzyme reactions in the body.
(a lot of the enzymes are curled up long molecules that are only
chemically active when certain parts of molecular loops are in near
proximity. when denatured through pH or temperature they straighten
out and the chemical processes they are involved with simply stop.)

Stealth pilot

I knew about the carbonic acid and the pH. I wasn't sure of the damage mechanism though. Very interesting. Thanks,
Stealth.

Joe Schneider
8437R



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It is CO that is the poison!!!

Read somewhere that there are no toxic substances, only toxic
quantities.