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#1
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Class B busted...My problem or the controller's ?
Today I flew into KBFI (Boeing field) which is class D and has
extentions that underlie the Class B that require close attention to altitudes and headings so as to stay clear. Today the winds were favoring 31L (and 31R) and I came in from the west on the Vashon approach--the most common approach from the west. I was on a left downwind for 31L and the tower told me I was number three following an Arrow on about a 2 mile straight in final (Valley approach?). I acknowledged the traffic, and was waiting for it to come up on my 9 o'clock before turning base so as to allow enough spacing. The controller suddenly told me that I was too far south and said either that I had busted into surface B or was about to. (I never did clearly hear which). Unless one turns a fairly close in base here--within about a half mile or less--you end up in class B surface. My questions: 1.Assuming I busted B; who is reponsible if the controller asks me to follow an aircraft that is too far out on a straight in? I mean, I can reduce speed, s-turn, and the like but I can't turn base until the aircraft on final is a safe distance away, right? 2.Is the controller supposed to arrange things so that I *can* turn base and not be in conflict with other aircraft? 3.How would you resolve the problem if it were happening to you ? Any thoughts would be appreciated... Antonio |
#2
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It's ultimately your responsibility for the safe and legal conduct of your
flight. You can technically refuse any instruction given by ATC on the grounds that it would compromise the safety and legality of your flight. If you knew the conditions of the pattern relative to Class B, it was your responsibility to alert the controller to the fact they'd given you instructions which would risk your busting the space. Your fault, I'm afraid. Be adult about it and recognize your responsibility. Aviation is nearly unique in the world as being a professional community which lives and breathes by the concept that the final and, really, only authority in any situation is the pilot in command. I think it's a brilliant concept that the rest of society is weaker for not embracing. The blame and victim cultures that relieve everyone of their own personal adult responsibility do not apply in aviation and, for the most part, pilots willingly behave appropriately. I think it's one of the crowing glories of the aviation community. Shawn "Antoņio" wrote in message oups.com... Today I flew into KBFI (Boeing field) which is class D and has extentions that underlie the Class B that require close attention to altitudes and headings so as to stay clear. Today the winds were favoring 31L (and 31R) and I came in from the west on the Vashon approach--the most common approach from the west. I was on a left downwind for 31L and the tower told me I was number three following an Arrow on about a 2 mile straight in final (Valley approach?). I acknowledged the traffic, and was waiting for it to come up on my 9 o'clock before turning base so as to allow enough spacing. The controller suddenly told me that I was too far south and said either that I had busted into surface B or was about to. (I never did clearly hear which). Unless one turns a fairly close in base here--within about a half mile or less--you end up in class B surface. My questions: 1.Assuming I busted B; who is reponsible if the controller asks me to follow an aircraft that is too far out on a straight in? I mean, I can reduce speed, s-turn, and the like but I can't turn base until the aircraft on final is a safe distance away, right? 2.Is the controller supposed to arrange things so that I *can* turn base and not be in conflict with other aircraft? 3.How would you resolve the problem if it were happening to you ? Any thoughts would be appreciated... Antonio |
#3
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Sounds like you knew the airspace well - so you knew extending the
downwind would bring you close to Class B, if not into it - That's an advantage, compared with someone who is there for the first time, and gives full trust to the controller. In your case, I would have said something to the tower, like "Unable to continue downwind into Class Bravo" asking for advice. That way, if he sends you into Class B, it's clear(er) who did what. I'm getting tempted to bring my own pocket recorder to monitor clearances and instructions. I've had controllers flat out deny the instructions they gave. I know they have tapes, but I get the feeling that when you want to contest something, those tapes may go the way of Rose Mary Woods . . . Hope you files a NASA form. G Faris |
#4
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ShawnD2112 wrote:
Aviation is nearly unique in the world as being a professional community which lives and breathes by the concept that the final and, really, only authority in any situation is the pilot in command. I think it's a brilliant concept that the rest of society is weaker for not embracing. The blame and victim cultures that relieve everyone of their own personal adult responsibility do not apply in aviation and, for the most part, pilots willingly behave appropriately. I think it's one of the crowing glories of the aviation community. Eloquently stated sir. Would that all of the other participants in this great experiement called "Life on Earth" have the same philosophy. |
#5
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"Antoņio" wrote in message
oups.com... 1.Assuming I busted B; who is reponsible if the controller asks me to follow an aircraft that is too far out on a straight in? I mean, I can reduce speed, s-turn, and the like but I can't turn base until the aircraft on final is a safe distance away, right? I don't know how the FAA may have ruled on such situations in practice, but the FARs seem ambiguous on the question. Of course, FAR 91.131a1 requires a clearance before entering Class B. But FAR 91.123b requires compliance with ATC instructions, except in an emergency. Clipping the edge of Class B probably doesn't constitute an emergency. So the FARs seem contradictory in a situation where obeying ATC requires you to bust Class B. In such a situation, I would first make every effort to alert the tower that I'm about to enter Class B. If the frequency is too congested to talk on the radio, I'd hit Ident. If I still had no reply from the tower, I'd leave the traffic pattern, stay clear of Class B, head outside the Class D (if not outside already), and contact the tower as soon as possible. I'd suggest that you submit an ASRS form, both for your legal protection, and also to call attention to the problem. --Gary |
#6
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Get a copy of the Letter of Agreement between the CBAS and the CDAS.
Read it to see who is responsible where between the two agencies and what coordination they have to resolve conflicts. Fill out a NASA Form 277. Aviate Navigate Communicate Sounds like you did them in that order. |
#7
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"Greg Farris" wrote in message ... I'm getting tempted to bring my own pocket recorder to monitor clearances and instructions. I've had controllers flat out deny the instructions they gave. I know they have tapes, but I get the feeling that when you want to contest something, those tapes may go the way of Rose Mary Woods . . . Without the tapes they can't prove you violated an instruction. |
#8
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"john smith" wrote in message ... Get a copy of the Letter of Agreement between the CBAS and the CDAS. Read it to see who is responsible where between the two agencies and what coordination they have to resolve conflicts. It doesn't matter who has jurisdiction if neither of them issued a clearance into Class B airspace. |
#9
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"Antoņio" wrote in message
oups.com... [...] Unless one turns a fairly close in base here--within about a half mile or less--you end up in class B surface. IMHO, that's incorrect. It's true that if you are flying a very wide downwind, you can clip the area of the Class B airspace that extends to the surface. But provided you are flying the downwind where you're supposed to -- over the Duwamish River -- you can fly straight out the valley as far as you like without running into the Class B. You do need to make sure you're at the proper pattern altitude (800') to ensure you're not grazing the bottom (1100' at its lowest). But that's usually not an issue. 1.Assuming I busted B; who is reponsible if the controller asks me to follow an aircraft that is too far out on a straight in? I mean, I can reduce speed, s-turn, and the like but I can't turn base until the aircraft on final is a safe distance away, right? Assuming you busted the Class B, you are responsible. The only thing that the tower controller does is grant you use of the runway. They don't have the authority to clear you into the Class B, and it's your responsibility to say "unable" if you're given an instruction with which you can't comply (for whatever reason, including regulatory). 2.Is the controller supposed to arrange things so that I *can* turn base and not be in conflict with other aircraft? The controllers is supposed to arrange things so that you don't wind up on the same part of the runway at the same time as someone else. That's all. They may try to assist with other issues, but ultimately those are all up to you. 3.How would you resolve the problem if it were happening to you ? Hard to say without knowing the specifics. The "problem" you describe doesn't actually exist at Boeing Field, so the only way for me to answer is to assume some other airport where the problem does exist. But airspace designers try to avoid creating problems like this. So finding such an airport on which to base my answer might be difficult, or impossible. That said, let's assume that at Boeing Field, the Class B down to the surface actually does extend all the way up to, but not including, the final approach course (it must not go over the final approach course, since then no straight-in approach would be allowed, except by aircraft who already have clearance through the Class B). Let's further assume that you need to turn base before 1/2 mile past the "abeam the numbers" point. Then your only available option is to not fly more than 1/2 mile past where you are abeam the numbers. This may require S-turns, to give the straight-in traffic more time. This may require making a 360 degree turn. You could possibly turn upwind and try again, hoping that no more straight-in traffic will show up. There are a variety of ways to solve the problem. But you would have to solve it...flying into the Class B airspace without a clearance isn't an option. Fortunately, this is all moot. It is entirely possible to extend one's downwind at Boeing Field without flying into the Class B airspace, and so the only thing you really need to do is make sure you are far enough east to avoid the Class B (and far enough west to avoid conflict with straight-in traffic). It's tighter than you usually find, but it's definitely doable. For what it's worth, I have found that the easiest way to ensure you're in the right spot is to fly directly over the Duwamish, and then aim for the small hill just to the south of the runway. As long as your downwind takes you just west of that hill, you'll stay clear of both the Class B and the final approach course. Alternatively, stay over or east of Route 99, and that will accomplish the same thing. I prefer the topographic landmarks, because they are easier to see than picking out which roadway is which, but 99 ought to be pretty prominent too. Pete |
#10
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("Greg Farris" wrote)
I'm getting tempted to bring my own pocket recorder to monitor clearances and instructions. I've had controllers flat out deny the instructions they gave. I know they have tapes, but I get the feeling that when you want to contest something, those tapes may go the way of Rose Mary Woods . . . What she described (her boo boo) was almost physically impossible to achieve ...."accidentally." http://watergate.info/images/woods-rosemary.jpg Something about her body language, in that now famous photo, was screaming - "I'm lying." Montblack |
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