Looping a 2-33

On Friday, June 19, 2015 at 10:51:37 AM UTC-4, kirk.stant wrote:

Did you actually read the Service Bulletin? It says "Aerobatics are not approved or RECOMMENDED" - because "the structural design levels of the sailplane could be exceeded".

On Thursday, June 18, 2015 at 5:41:40 PM UTC-4, wrote:
every 2-33 manual I have seen says mild aerobatcs to 80 mph can be done (1-5 in link below). To loop a 2-33 is not dangerous.

Mik cites 2-33 POH to underscore his claim that 'To loop a 2-33 is not dangerous. He overlooks that Service Bulletin 'SA-003 Aerobatics in Schweizer Sailplane 25 Mar 1987' supersedes the POH.

That is a black and white case of being 'uninformed'. It's irresponsible (aka dangerous) to propagate misinformation wrt the manufacturer's position on the suitability of an aircraft for aerobatics.

That's my only point. Anyone who chooses to do aerobatics in a 2-33 should be aware of the manufacturer's position and in particular they should be aware that the POH was superseded by a service bulletin.

WRT how I will choose to fly a 2-33, the accumulated abuse and neglect of most 2-33s outweighs the possibility that SA-003 was 'liability dodging BS' back in 1987 (28 years ago).

Ok, I'll bite... What about the Security 150? Too small?

I have a 280 sq ft ram air 'chute. Probably way overkill, but I ordered
it before I took the training. I'm happy that, in the absence of high
winds (at Moriarty?) I can do a zero speed (vertical and horizontal)
landing with it.

On 6/18/2015 11:19 PM, wrote:
As I like to say, "in aviation the convenient and the unnecessary are invitations to an accident".

And isn't anybody going to comment on the Security 150? Come on people!

MM

--
Dan Marotta

I have a 280 sq ft ram air 'chute.* Probably way overkill, but I
ordered it before I took the training.* I'm happy that, in the
absence of high winds (at Moriarty?) I can do a zero speed (vertical
and horizontal) landing with it.


How fast does it open and what's the minimum altitude?

From my jumping I'd estimate about 3 to 3 1/2 seconds, but that's
simply by counting from drogue deployment to full canopy. Of course
they say 1,000' minimum but, if I got hit on downwind and the nose
started down, I think I'd have a better chance with the 'chute than with
riding the glider to the ground. With the sport rigs the automatic
baro/timer for the reserve fires at 1,000', IIRC, and the 'chute seems
fully opened by about 500'.

On 6/19/2015 12:13 PM, Nick wrote:
I have a 280 sq ft ram air 'chute. Probably way overkill, but I
ordered it before I took the training. I'm happy that, in the
absence of high winds (at Moriarty?) I can do a zero speed (vertical
and horizontal) landing with it.

How fast does it open and what's the minimum altitude?

--
Dan Marotta

Not to already beat a dead horse, but Galen Fisher is a great instructor with years of instruction given. I am sure he is and was safe to loop a 2-33.. Most people cannot loop a helicopter either, but those that can are well qualified to so. Bob Hoover did things with a twin commander (not aerobatic aircraft)like loops, rolls etc., that only a few pilots in the world could do. Both Galen and Bob keep the aircraft with the envelope when performing these maneuvers.

Very well said!

On 6/19/2015 2:21 PM, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
Not to already beat a dead horse, but Galen Fisher is a great instructor with years of instruction given. I am sure he is and was safe to loop a 2-33. Most people cannot loop a helicopter either, but those that can are well qualified to so. Bob Hoover did things with a twin commander (not aerobatic aircraft)like loops, rolls etc., that only a few pilots in the world could do. Both Galen and Bob keep the aircraft with the envelope when performing these maneuvers.

--
Dan Marotta

On Friday, 19 June 2015 20:59:40 UTC+1, Dan Marotta wrote:
From my jumping I'd estimate about 3 to 3 1/2 seconds, but that's
simply by counting from drogue deployment to full canopy.* Of course
they say 1,000' minimum but, if I got hit on downwind and the nose
started down, I think I'd have a better chance with the 'chute than
with riding the glider to the ground.* With the sport rigs the
automatic baro/timer for the reserve fires at 1,000', IIRC, and the
'chute seems fully opened by about 500'.


That will be because you've got a runner slowing down the deployment. That's why emergency chutes don't have them, they open with a bang, are smaller so they open faster. You hit the ground faster, but a lot less slower than if your chute hasn't opened completely.

Interesting comment about the runner, I learned it as a slider, but a
rose by any other name...

I watched the first inspection/repack of my ram air chute and I though I
saw a slider. I know they have them on the sport rigs which I've jumped
with. I'll have to ask my rigger. I know the base jumpers don't use a
slider.

On 6/20/2015 3:38 AM, Nick wrote:
On Friday, 19 June 2015 20:59:40 UTC+1, Dan Marotta wrote:
From my jumping I'd estimate about 3 to 3 1/2 seconds, but that's
simply by counting from drogue deployment to full canopy. Of course
they say 1,000' minimum but, if I got hit on downwind and the nose
started down, I think I'd have a better chance with the 'chute than
with riding the glider to the ground. With the sport rigs the
automatic baro/timer for the reserve fires at 1,000', IIRC, and the
'chute seems fully opened by about 500'.

That will be because you've got a runner slowing down the deployment. That's why emergency chutes don't have them, they open with a bang, are smaller so they open faster. You hit the ground faster, but a lot less slower than if your chute hasn't opened completely.

--
Dan Marotta

On Saturday, 20 June 2015 16:31:25 UTC+1, Dan Marotta wrote:
Interesting comment about the runner, I learned it as a slider, but
a rose by any other name...



I watched the first inspection/repack of my ram air chute and I
though I saw a slider.* I know they have them on the sport rigs
which I've jumped with.* I'll have to ask my rigger.* I know the
base jumpers don't use a slider.


You might get it in the groin, but that's why they don't have them. Or at least mine doesn't.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aYGN1Y2bfIs Shows runners in use.