A aviation & planes forum. AviationBanter

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Go Back   Home » AviationBanter forum » rec.aviation newsgroups » Piloting
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

T-6 accident



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #21  
Old November 19th 07, 03:18 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Morgans[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,924
Default T-6 accident


"Darkwing" theducksmailATyahoo.com wrote

What is the deal with the first crash shown in this video?
Overstressed the aircraft and it came apart? Very strange.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=CnN9iIvVVto


Catastrophic uncontained engine failure, is what I remember about that
clip.
--
Jim in NC


  #22  
Old November 19th 07, 03:31 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Dudley Henriques[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,546
Default T-6 accident

Morgans wrote:
"Bertie the Bunyip" wrote
doubt it or he would have turned into the ground pretty quickish. just
not enough top rudder would be my guess.


I looked at the rudder position as he completed the first 90 degrees of the
roll, and it looked like the rudder was completely neutral. Did you see
that, too?


Rudder deflection isn't as much as one might imagine during a roll. Most
pilots are used to looking at their own rudder deflection on the ground
as they check the rudder throw each way. In a roll, with dynamic
pressure on the rudder, it actually deflects very little to produce the
desired effect.
The flatness of his rotation off his roll axis between knife edge and
impact would seem to indicate a bottom rudder producing yaw. If it was
back pressure applied too early, assuming he had kept in the rolling
aileron, as he continued to roll into knife edge and the nose came down,
the back pressure would produce turn that should result in the impact
being at the left wingtip rather than the flat rotation he seemed to
experience prior to impact.
Dudley

--
Dudley Henriques
  #23  
Old November 19th 07, 06:34 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Jay Honeck
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,573
Default T-6 accident

No it is an F14 doing a high speed pass just above the deck, then it banks
and a just explodes. It is kind if surreal like a Hollywood plane crash.-


Go here for some detail on this unusual incident:

http://alexisparkinn.com/military_videos.htm

Scroll down to "F14A Tomcat Explosion" to view both the video and read
several explanations of what might have caused the explosion.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"
  #24  
Old November 19th 07, 10:11 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Bertie the Bunyip[_19_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,851
Default T-6 accident

"Morgans" wrote in
:


"Bertie the Bunyip" wrote

doubt it or he would have turned into the ground pretty quickish.
just not enough top rudder would be my guess.


I looked at the rudder position as he completed the first 90 degrees
of the roll, and it looked like the rudder was completely neutral.
Did you see that, too?


Yah, really hard to see with those blurry you tube things, but that's what
it looked like, but what Dudley says makes sense. I think he went al lizard
brained and started thrashing rather than flying the airplane through the
error as he should have.


Bertie
  #25  
Old November 20th 07, 03:45 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Darkwing
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 604
Default T-6 accident


"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
...
No it is an F14 doing a high speed pass just above the deck, then it
banks
and a just explodes. It is kind if surreal like a Hollywood plane crash.-


Go here for some detail on this unusual incident:

http://alexisparkinn.com/military_videos.htm

Scroll down to "F14A Tomcat Explosion" to view both the video and read
several explanations of what might have caused the explosion.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"


Thanks Jay that definitely answered my question.



  #26  
Old November 20th 07, 03:50 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Bela P. Havasreti[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1
Default T-6 accident

On Sun, 18 Nov 2007 14:22:58 -0600, Big John
wrote:

On Sun, 18 Nov 2007 13:51:53 +0000 (UTC), Bertie the Bunyip
wrote:

WJRFlyBoy wrote in
t:

On Sun, 18 Nov 2007 08:12:31 +0000 (UTC), Bertie the Bunyip wrote:

This is the one I mean to post Dudley. Was having some trouble with
Youtube due to a plug-in I think..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7eYhlm9FJ8

Can you assess the problem?


What, with my browser or the accident?

The T-6 passed 90 deg (and even earlier) with his nose below the horizon.
He could have rolled back and saved it at that point, but he continued
around in the now awkward position of having to prevent further altitude
loss with excessive neg G which slowed him considerably and further skewed
the airplane's. The exit half was a classic dish. Everybody does 'em
sometimes.... Trick is to recognise a roll that's going to produce one
early enough to abandon it. This guy didn't.

The You tube extension add-on, I have no idea, but it's made a mess out of
my youtube fun!



Bertie



Bertie

I made some comments on another post on this accident which was before
the video of the accident was posted.

I have looked at the strip probably 50 times and can't come up with
what I believe is a accurate analysis of what all happened and why.

1. Bird was in a shallow dive and picking up airspeed, above cruise,
when strip starts. This is a good entry technique.

2. Bird bottomed out and nose was raised above the horizon before roll
started. Again good technique.

3. After first 90 degrees of roll nose had dropped to at least level
or very slightly nose down.

4. After 180 degrees of roll nose was definitely below the horizon.
Not in a dive but shallow enough that continuing roll rate should have
allowed completion of roll before bird hitting ground.

5. After 270 degrees of roll bird made almost a square corner port
turn and shortly after hit the ground almost flat 90 degrees off line
of flight.

6. It did not look to me like he dished out but I don't know why the
bird made the rapid 90 degree turn off line of flight. My experience
with dish out of roll, in T-6, bird ended up at max 30 degrees off
line of flight.

7. Assuming video strip was real time, the roll was a pretty rapid
slow roll. My slow rolls were about half the roll rate of this bird.

8.Roll was against torque, which would have slowed roll down without
extra aileron.

9.Either you or Dudley talked about G forces slowing bird down. I
didn't see any large angle of attack which would be required to slow
bird down.

10. Looking at bird in video, I didn't see any reduction in airspeed
until about the time it made the 90 degree turn before impact.

Lots of comments but can't give a hard analysis of what happened from
start to finish.

Big John


If I recall correctly, the pilot of the accident aircraft borrowed
that T-6 for the accident flight (his T-6 was down for maintenance,
something like that...). The story went that his T-6 had the "high
throw" aileron bellcranks, but the borrowed / accident T-6 did not.

Bela P. Havasreti
  #27  
Old November 20th 07, 04:32 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Dudley Henriques[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,546
Default T-6 accident

Bela P. Havasreti wrote:
On Sun, 18 Nov 2007 14:22:58 -0600, Big John
wrote:

On Sun, 18 Nov 2007 13:51:53 +0000 (UTC), Bertie the Bunyip
wrote:

WJRFlyBoy wrote in
:

On Sun, 18 Nov 2007 08:12:31 +0000 (UTC), Bertie the Bunyip wrote:

This is the one I mean to post Dudley. Was having some trouble with
Youtube due to a plug-in I think..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7eYhlm9FJ8
Can you assess the problem?
What, with my browser or the accident?

The T-6 passed 90 deg (and even earlier) with his nose below the horizon.
He could have rolled back and saved it at that point, but he continued
around in the now awkward position of having to prevent further altitude
loss with excessive neg G which slowed him considerably and further skewed
the airplane's. The exit half was a classic dish. Everybody does 'em
sometimes.... Trick is to recognise a roll that's going to produce one
early enough to abandon it. This guy didn't.

The You tube extension add-on, I have no idea, but it's made a mess out of
my youtube fun!



Bertie


Bertie

I made some comments on another post on this accident which was before
the video of the accident was posted.

I have looked at the strip probably 50 times and can't come up with
what I believe is a accurate analysis of what all happened and why.

1. Bird was in a shallow dive and picking up airspeed, above cruise,
when strip starts. This is a good entry technique.

2. Bird bottomed out and nose was raised above the horizon before roll
started. Again good technique.

3. After first 90 degrees of roll nose had dropped to at least level
or very slightly nose down.

4. After 180 degrees of roll nose was definitely below the horizon.
Not in a dive but shallow enough that continuing roll rate should have
allowed completion of roll before bird hitting ground.

5. After 270 degrees of roll bird made almost a square corner port
turn and shortly after hit the ground almost flat 90 degrees off line
of flight.

6. It did not look to me like he dished out but I don't know why the
bird made the rapid 90 degree turn off line of flight. My experience
with dish out of roll, in T-6, bird ended up at max 30 degrees off
line of flight.

7. Assuming video strip was real time, the roll was a pretty rapid
slow roll. My slow rolls were about half the roll rate of this bird.

8.Roll was against torque, which would have slowed roll down without
extra aileron.

9.Either you or Dudley talked about G forces slowing bird down. I
didn't see any large angle of attack which would be required to slow
bird down.

10. Looking at bird in video, I didn't see any reduction in airspeed
until about the time it made the 90 degree turn before impact.

Lots of comments but can't give a hard analysis of what happened from
start to finish.

Big John


If I recall correctly, the pilot of the accident aircraft borrowed
that T-6 for the accident flight (his T-6 was down for maintenance,
something like that...). The story went that his T-6 had the "high
throw" aileron bellcranks, but the borrowed / accident T-6 did not.

Bela P. Havasreti


The 6 had 2 choices of bell cranks on the ailerons. One was a 29up/15
down and the other a straight 15/15 if I recall.

If the accident pilot was used to the roll rate and roll inertia
resulting from a roll set initiated at his usual entry airspeed
(aileron dynamic pressure) and rolled the borrowed aircraft with the
asymmetrical aileron setup this could possibly explain a great deal to
me as a display pilot.
For a given airspeed, the aileron drag produced by the 29/15 setup would
not have been what he was instinctively expecting and that could easily
have spooked him as the roll commenced causing the control
mis-application and confusion that seemed obvious from the crash.

--
Dudley Henriques
  #28  
Old November 20th 07, 05:39 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Bertie the Bunyip[_19_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,851
Default T-6 accident

Dudley Henriques wrote in
:

Bela P. Havasreti wrote:
On Sun, 18 Nov 2007 14:22:58 -0600, Big John
wrote:

On Sun, 18 Nov 2007 13:51:53 +0000 (UTC), Bertie the Bunyip
wrote:

WJRFlyBoy wrote in
:

On Sun, 18 Nov 2007 08:12:31 +0000 (UTC), Bertie the Bunyip wrote:

This is the one I mean to post Dudley. Was having some trouble
with Youtube due to a plug-in I think..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7eYhlm9FJ8
Can you assess the problem?
What, with my browser or the accident?

The T-6 passed 90 deg (and even earlier) with his nose below the
horizon. He could have rolled back and saved it at that point, but
he continued around in the now awkward position of having to
prevent further altitude loss with excessive neg G which slowed him
considerably and further skewed the airplane's. The exit half was a
classic dish. Everybody does 'em sometimes.... Trick is to
recognise a roll that's going to produce one early enough to
abandon it. This guy didn't.

The You tube extension add-on, I have no idea, but it's made a mess
out of my youtube fun!



Bertie

Bertie

I made some comments on another post on this accident which was
before the video of the accident was posted.

I have looked at the strip probably 50 times and can't come up with
what I believe is a accurate analysis of what all happened and why.

1. Bird was in a shallow dive and picking up airspeed, above cruise,
when strip starts. This is a good entry technique.

2. Bird bottomed out and nose was raised above the horizon before
roll started. Again good technique.

3. After first 90 degrees of roll nose had dropped to at least level
or very slightly nose down.

4. After 180 degrees of roll nose was definitely below the horizon.
Not in a dive but shallow enough that continuing roll rate should
have allowed completion of roll before bird hitting ground.

5. After 270 degrees of roll bird made almost a square corner port
turn and shortly after hit the ground almost flat 90 degrees off
line of flight.

6. It did not look to me like he dished out but I don't know why the
bird made the rapid 90 degree turn off line of flight. My experience
with dish out of roll, in T-6, bird ended up at max 30 degrees off
line of flight.

7. Assuming video strip was real time, the roll was a pretty rapid
slow roll. My slow rolls were about half the roll rate of this bird.

8.Roll was against torque, which would have slowed roll down without
extra aileron.

9.Either you or Dudley talked about G forces slowing bird down. I
didn't see any large angle of attack which would be required to slow
bird down.

10. Looking at bird in video, I didn't see any reduction in airspeed
until about the time it made the 90 degree turn before impact.

Lots of comments but can't give a hard analysis of what happened
from start to finish.

Big John


If I recall correctly, the pilot of the accident aircraft borrowed
that T-6 for the accident flight (his T-6 was down for maintenance,
something like that...). The story went that his T-6 had the "high
throw" aileron bellcranks, but the borrowed / accident T-6 did not.

Bela P. Havasreti


The 6 had 2 choices of bell cranks on the ailerons. One was a 29up/15
down and the other a straight 15/15 if I recall.

If the accident pilot was used to the roll rate and roll inertia
resulting from a roll set initiated at his usual entry airspeed
(aileron dynamic pressure) and rolled the borrowed aircraft with the
asymmetrical aileron setup this could possibly explain a great deal to
me as a display pilot.
For a given airspeed, the aileron drag produced by the 29/15 setup
would not have been what he was instinctively expecting and that could
easily have spooked him as the roll commenced causing the control
mis-application and confusion that seemed obvious from the crash.


Absolutely. It would have been like flying an almost entirely different
airplane. There's a lesson there, alright..


Bertie


  #29  
Old November 20th 07, 06:21 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Dudley Henriques[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,546
Default T-6 accident

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Dudley Henriques wrote in
:

Bela P. Havasreti wrote:
On Sun, 18 Nov 2007 14:22:58 -0600, Big John
wrote:

On Sun, 18 Nov 2007 13:51:53 +0000 (UTC), Bertie the Bunyip
wrote:

WJRFlyBoy wrote in
:

On Sun, 18 Nov 2007 08:12:31 +0000 (UTC), Bertie the Bunyip wrote:

This is the one I mean to post Dudley. Was having some trouble
with Youtube due to a plug-in I think..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7eYhlm9FJ8
Can you assess the problem?
What, with my browser or the accident?

The T-6 passed 90 deg (and even earlier) with his nose below the
horizon. He could have rolled back and saved it at that point, but
he continued around in the now awkward position of having to
prevent further altitude loss with excessive neg G which slowed him
considerably and further skewed the airplane's. The exit half was a
classic dish. Everybody does 'em sometimes.... Trick is to
recognise a roll that's going to produce one early enough to
abandon it. This guy didn't.

The You tube extension add-on, I have no idea, but it's made a mess
out of my youtube fun!



Bertie
Bertie

I made some comments on another post on this accident which was
before the video of the accident was posted.

I have looked at the strip probably 50 times and can't come up with
what I believe is a accurate analysis of what all happened and why.

1. Bird was in a shallow dive and picking up airspeed, above cruise,
when strip starts. This is a good entry technique.

2. Bird bottomed out and nose was raised above the horizon before
roll started. Again good technique.

3. After first 90 degrees of roll nose had dropped to at least level
or very slightly nose down.

4. After 180 degrees of roll nose was definitely below the horizon.
Not in a dive but shallow enough that continuing roll rate should
have allowed completion of roll before bird hitting ground.

5. After 270 degrees of roll bird made almost a square corner port
turn and shortly after hit the ground almost flat 90 degrees off
line of flight.

6. It did not look to me like he dished out but I don't know why the
bird made the rapid 90 degree turn off line of flight. My experience
with dish out of roll, in T-6, bird ended up at max 30 degrees off
line of flight.

7. Assuming video strip was real time, the roll was a pretty rapid
slow roll. My slow rolls were about half the roll rate of this bird.

8.Roll was against torque, which would have slowed roll down without
extra aileron.

9.Either you or Dudley talked about G forces slowing bird down. I
didn't see any large angle of attack which would be required to slow
bird down.

10. Looking at bird in video, I didn't see any reduction in airspeed
until about the time it made the 90 degree turn before impact.

Lots of comments but can't give a hard analysis of what happened
from start to finish.

Big John
If I recall correctly, the pilot of the accident aircraft borrowed
that T-6 for the accident flight (his T-6 was down for maintenance,
something like that...). The story went that his T-6 had the "high
throw" aileron bellcranks, but the borrowed / accident T-6 did not.

Bela P. Havasreti

The 6 had 2 choices of bell cranks on the ailerons. One was a 29up/15
down and the other a straight 15/15 if I recall.

If the accident pilot was used to the roll rate and roll inertia
resulting from a roll set initiated at his usual entry airspeed
(aileron dynamic pressure) and rolled the borrowed aircraft with the
asymmetrical aileron setup this could possibly explain a great deal to
me as a display pilot.
For a given airspeed, the aileron drag produced by the 29/15 setup
would not have been what he was instinctively expecting and that could
easily have spooked him as the roll commenced causing the control
mis-application and confusion that seemed obvious from the crash.


Absolutely. It would have been like flying an almost entirely different
airplane. There's a lesson there, alright..


Bertie

With this information, I honestly believe this is what got him. The
asymmetrical cranks would buffet the ailerons in a full stick throw and
from the film, he had considerable aileron in play judging from the roll
rate I saw. If he got "unexpected" results from the lateral stick throw
and felt some aileron buffet he wasn't expecting, this combination could
have produced the exact result we saw on the film.
Low altitude rolls are one area of flight where if you begin feeling
something out of place during the roll, it could easily kill all but the
most highly disciplined display pilot. Even then, it could be a crap
shoot picking a result.
You try to prepare for everything in your training as a display pilot,
but there's always the unexpected. If that happens, even professionals
can get that split second brain freeze where you try desperately to sort
it out in the nano-second you have to do that.
My guess is that this poor guy just got a split second behind what had
to be done and the airplane started flying him instead of the other way
around.
It happens, and I've seen it happen to some of the finest pilots I've
ever known.
Sad fact of life in this venue unfortunately.

--
Dudley Henriques
  #30  
Old November 20th 07, 06:42 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Bertie the Bunyip[_19_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,851
Default T-6 accident

Dudley Henriques wrote in news:a5WdnagX4-ZL89
:


With this information, I honestly believe this is what got him. The
asymmetrical cranks would buffet the ailerons in a full stick throw and
from the film, he had considerable aileron in play judging from the roll
rate I saw. If he got "unexpected" results from the lateral stick throw
and felt some aileron buffet he wasn't expecting, this combination could
have produced the exact result we saw on the film.



I can see one result that would come from the assymetric ailerons. the
right aileron would have been producing more drag than he was used to and
dragging his nose to the left (our perspective) which would have been
skewing him that way even as he was leaving inverted flight. It also would
have been pulling the nose down around the first 90 deg. It had to have
been confusing when the usual amount of rudder wasn't doing it for him. The
last bit looks to me as if there's an awful lot of skidding going on, but I
have to say, even looking at it over and over it all happens so quickly
it's really hard to see aht's going on.


It happens, and I've seen it happen to some of the finest pilots I've
ever known.
Sad fact of life in this venue unfortunately.


Yeah, I think I'll be loeaving low alt stuff out at this stage....

Bertie
 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
A Sad Accident RL Anderson Piloting 29 October 20th 07 08:14 PM
F6F accident Larry Cauble Naval Aviation 4 October 14th 05 06:19 PM
C-130 accident Jay Honeck Piloting 28 January 11th 05 07:52 PM
MU2 accident Big John Piloting 16 April 13th 04 03:58 AM
KC-135 accident Big John Piloting 3 November 19th 03 05:36 PM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 02:16 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2024 AviationBanter.
The comments are property of their posters.