T-6 accident

Jim Logajan wrote in
:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
"Viperdoc" wrote in
news:474364d1$0$32502 :

Several years ago there was a low time pilot in our area with a new
Commander, who crashed and died with three others on board. It turns
out that he tore the wings off while rolling the plane.

It comes down to the famous last words of "let me show you this!"

Yeah, some tit did that on the way home from Sun n Fun this year in a
Baron. First aerobatic lesson, self taught in a Baron with pax.
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?e...27X00463&key=1
This is just a mind blowing accident.

Wow. That pilot didn't make an isolated foolish mistake - the
historical evidence indicates he was a fool from the beginning to the
end. The tragedy is that four others died along with the fool.

Found this AOPA article on the accident with the apt title "What was
he thinking?":

http://www.aopa.org/asf/asfarticles/2007/sp0707.html


Worse than I imagined. I dunno. I suppose seeing a guy doing aerobatics
in a beech 18 could lead you to believe it's as easy as it looks. If I
ruled the world everybody would get some aerobatics as a matter of
course. Obviously, this would probably cause more problems than it would
solve in the real world, but I find it a bit frightening to think of how
few pilots out there don't understand loading, wind gradient and myriad
other odds and ends which are all mentioned in the jeppeson private
pilot courses, but aren;t really taught.
hell, most instructors don't understand them. If this guy had even an
inkling as to what's involved in doing a slow roll in a heavily loaded
Baron he'd probably still be here.
I suppose what I'm really saying is flying needs more of an extended
family approach to things. If someone who knew what they were doing were
able to take this guy up in an aerobatic airplane and just let him try
to do a roll on his own but under supervision, he'd soon wake up. It
might give him a bit of respect for a wide range of things, in fact.

Call me a dreamer, I won't care.


Bertie

Bertie

Dudley Henriques wrote in
:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Dudley Henriques wrote in
:


I think a lot of us who come up with the "aerobatics bug" start out
even without realizing it in some cases that knowing how to fly acro
and doing it sets us apart from the "average" pilot. It's a falsely
conceived premise at best that some actually never shed .
Those who don't are usually the ones who end up dead. It's THAT
simple!


I'm a bit confused as to what you mean here, unless it's that some
aerobatic pilots have notions about ourselves above our station.


It's simple really. Pilots exist for the most part as a specialized
group. Even loners are part of the "group"

By definition, flying is an acquired skill obtained through knowledge
and experience. The "group" recognizes those who can do things with an
airplane others in the group can't do. It's a natural pecking order
where the ability to perform aerobatics rates highly among many in the
group. This isn't to say that aerobatic pilots are better than others
in the group, but rather that the ability to perform aerobatics and
fly certain aircraft can be a "respected position" in the flying
community. Knowing this is practically unavoidable if one exists in
the flying community as a pilot.
It's quite natural therefore, (right or wrong), that SOME pilots
acquiring aerobatic skills tend toward envisioning themselves as
being "a step up" in the pecking order. If not recognized by an
individual pilot when and if this happens for it's potential toward
the development of false confidence, the situation can be a real
problem for some individuals.
The trick of course is for the acrobatically competent pilot to
recognize that part of the price for that "step up" in the pecking
order is a dual responsibility to accept aerobatics and the dangers
associated with them with the respect they are due and as well make
every attempt to instill that same respect in other pilots.

This is nothing more really, than a pedantic way of saying that pilots
acquiring aerobatic skills need to acquire aerobatic responsibility as
well. The two are inseparable and the first without the latter will
kill you dead. The residual of all this is that without
responsibility, what you do can influence someone else and possibly
kill them dead as well.


OK, I understand what you meant now. You jes dinda write it sa good the
furst time.
Yes, absolutely. We had a very good group in PA and showing off, within
reason and under the watchful eye of the top chicken was fairly normal,
until one day, when a student pilot (and I mean a student pilot) did an
inverted low pass over the field in a ****ing glider!
Now it wasn't all that low, but still!
The lid was put on any more showboating on weekends. Low level stuff was
treated less casually from that day onwards dispaly practice was always
seen as something that had to have at least tacit approval from the
airfield operator.
!!"


Hm, yes. I never thought this through before, but it rings true. I'm
never shy about a little showing off and I think most pilots are like
that, but I never liked being cajoled into doing something but I'm
uncertain as to whether that was because I have some sort of innate
wisdom or because I'm an anarchist at heart.

We'll have to share a few Jack Daniels' sometime and discuss this in
more depth

You're preaching to the choir anyway. I've cone to realise most, if not
all of this stuff, in one form or another through exposure to some very
good guys and some very bad experiences.
Also, I drink Jameson.



This is a perfectly normal process. I went through it as well.
(Remember, I probably own the most widely publicized buzz job in
aviation history :-)
The trick is to recognize it early on and control it which I'm sure
both of us managed to do.

Well, if anone ever really learned to control it completely theyh
probably wouldn't do it at all!
The only safe ship never leaves the harbour and all that.




Douglas did have a way with words. Once to a group of paraplegic
children he visited in a hospital;

“Don't listen to anyone who tells you that you can't do this or
that.
That's nonsense. Make up your mind you'll never use crutches or a
stick, then have a go at everything. Go to school, join in all the
games you can. Go anywhere you want to. But never, never let them
persuade you that things are too difficult or impossible.”

Ya gotta love the guy!! :-))


Did he ever talk abuot his accident to you?

From what little I know about it, (the movie) he crashed a Bulldog doing
a hotdog low alt roll.



Bertie

Dudley Henriques wrote in
:



This is almost always the case with these incidents. It's seldom a one
shot deal decided on the spur of the moment. Many of the pilots
caughtup in these things have a "history". Many times it's just that
old; "I could be Bob Hoover if only I had the chance".
Unfortunately, these people never quite realize until it's way too
late that the word "chance" should really be read as "experience"


And experience should be read as "I'm a very experienced pilot, just try
and not be with me while I'm having one of my experiences"


Bertie

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Dudley Henriques wrote in

Did he ever talk abuot his accident to you?

From what little I know about it, (the movie) he crashed a Bulldog doing
a hotdog low alt roll.



Bertie

Yes, we discussed it several times. He was always open and honest about
what happened. He was at Woodley on a cross country in the Bulldog and
got into it big time with some civvy pilots hanging out in the field
flight shack. Douglas had a bit of a rep as an aerobatic pilot and was
prone to demonstrating that on a moment's notice I'm afraid :-)
Anyway, Douglas told me the Bulldog was a mess to handle and was
restricted to over 1000 feet for acro. At first he declined when they
asked him for a roll over the field but they apparently ****ed him off
(his words on the matter :-)
Anyway, he took off and came around low and slow rolled it. He caught
his left tip and the rest is history.
I never heard DB make any excuses at all for what happened. In fact, his
word on it to me was "Dudley my boy, I simply bollocked it up" We never
did agree on the definition of "bollocked" :-) He said colonials would
never understand the King's English :-)
Douglas was never a man to shirk anything. He said he screwed it up and
I could tell from the way he said it that he meant EXACTLY what he said.
Hell...later on when he took over the Canadian Squadron, he grabbed a
fighter the first day he was there on the job as the new CO and put on a
show the old timers STILL talk about. They say the roll he did that day,
with his two tin legs on board, was about as low as the first one that
day in the Bulldog!
Unbelievable character, and one of the finest, most outspoken and
downright tenacious right on guys you could ever hope to meet on the planet.

--
Dudley Henriques

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Dudley Henriques wrote in
:


This is almost always the case with these incidents. It's seldom a one
shot deal decided on the spur of the moment. Many of the pilots
caughtup in these things have a "history". Many times it's just that
old; "I could be Bob Hoover if only I had the chance".
Unfortunately, these people never quite realize until it's way too
late that the word "chance" should really be read as "experience"


And experience should be read as "I'm a very experienced pilot, just try
and not be with me while I'm having one of my experiences"


Bertie



That indeed works for some people :-)

--
Dudley Henriques

Dudley Henriques wrote in
:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Dudley Henriques wrote in

Did he ever talk abuot his accident to you?

From what little I know about it, (the movie) he crashed a Bulldog
doing a hotdog low alt roll.



Bertie

Yes, we discussed it several times. He was always open and honest
about what happened. He was at Woodley on a cross country in the
Bulldog and got into it big time with some civvy pilots hanging out in
the field flight shack. Douglas had a bit of a rep as an aerobatic
pilot and was prone to demonstrating that on a moment's notice I'm
afraid :-) Anyway, Douglas told me the Bulldog was a mess to handle
and was restricted to over 1000 feet for acro. At first he declined
when they asked him for a roll over the field but they apparently
****ed him off (his words on the matter :-)
Anyway, he took off and came around low and slow rolled it. He caught
his left tip and the rest is history.


Yeah, that's exactly how it's represented in the movie.

I never heard DB make any excuses at all for what happened. In fact,
his word on it to me was "Dudley my boy, I simply bollocked it up" We
never did agree on the definition of "bollocked" :-) He said colonials
would never understand the King's English :-)

You;re in luck! I can help you there.


******** de-mystified.





His example... "********ed it up", you already know. but he could have
also said " I made a ******** of it" and it's likely he exclaimed
"********" as his wing touched the runway. Pretty much just **** or ****
in US english.
If someone were to tell you something of which you doubt the veracity
you might say to him "that's ********" in fact it's pretty much a
direct substitute for bull**** or horse ****.
Yet another use is "He's a ********" which is pretty much a straight
swap (or swop of one prefers) for ******* or similar.
You can also give or recieve a bollocking. This roughly translates into
getting a new one torn. Past tense, bollocked.
You can also be ********ed, which means you are very tired. This is not
so common as it more common to say "I'm knackered" which means wrecked,
but ********ed can also be used in more extreme cases of knackeredness.
Can also mean getting drunk in some circles, though that's usually
getting ****ed as I'm sure you know.
And last but not least when some ******** makes a ******** of something
the best think to do is to kick him square in the ********.

Also spelled Bollox and Bollix. If there;s a difference between the
three I'm not aware of it.

I think that's fairly accurate, though it's more than likely some
******** will come along and correct me.


Douglas was never a man to shirk anything. He said he screwed it up
and I could tell from the way he said it that he meant EXACTLY what he
said. Hell...later on when he took over the Canadian Squadron, he
grabbed a fighter the first day he was there on the job as the new CO
and put on a show the old timers STILL talk about. They say the roll
he did that day, with his two tin legs on board, was about as low as
the first one that day in the Bulldog!
Unbelievable character, and one of the finest, most outspoken and
downright tenacious right on guys you could ever hope to meet on the
planet.

Cool. Not a lot you can do when you leave a wreck somewhere anyway but
own up.
Wonder what he'd make of his countrymen's craze for burying vintage
aircraft.


Bertie

Dudley Henriques wrote in
:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Dudley Henriques wrote in
:


This is almost always the case with these incidents. It's seldom a
one shot deal decided on the spur of the moment. Many of the pilots
caughtup in these things have a "history". Many times it's just that
old; "I could be Bob Hoover if only I had the chance".
Unfortunately, these people never quite realize until it's way too
late that the word "chance" should really be read as "experience"


And experience should be read as "I'm a very experienced pilot, just
try and not be with me while I'm having one of my experiences"


Bertie



That indeed works for some people :-)

Works for me! Although I'll happily listen to other;s experiences as well.


Bertie

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Dudley Henriques wrote in
:


Cool. Not a lot you can do when you leave a wreck somewhere anyway but
own up.
Wonder what he'd make of his countrymen's craze for burying vintage
aircraft.


Bertie


It's been a mess over there for sure. That last Hurricane was a real shame.
I lost three friends in the UK in unrelated accidents in the last
several years. Ted Girdler (ex- Red Arrow 1972 was killed several years
ago doing a show, and Ormond Hayden-Bailee was killed several years ago.
Both were in the old IFPF as charter members. Hoof Proudfoot dug a hole
at Duxford with a P38 doing a double roll. Another first rate display
pilot gone.
The list gets larger every year it seems.



--
Dudley Henriques

K l e i n wrote:
On Nov 20, 4:28 pm, Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Dudley Henriques wrote :



I think a lot of us who come up with the "aerobatics bug" start out
even without realizing it in some cases that knowing how to fly acro
and doing it sets us apart from the "average" pilot. It's a falsely
conceived premise at best that some actually never shed .
Those who don't are usually the ones who end up dead. It's THAT
simple!
I'm a bit confused as to what you mean here, unless it's that some
aerobatic pilots have notions about ourselves above our station.





The pilots who make it all the way through a career in display flying
are worth watching as they have common behavior and habit patterns
worth emulating for those considering entering this venue.
Most have common traits that are recognizable to even the untrained
eye. The pilots who last in the display acro business develop early
on, an attitude of respect for the venue that borders on a kind of
fanaticism. These are the pilots who, when tempted to do a roll on
takeoff by the local airport crowd on a Sunday morning as they get
ready to go cross country to do an air show somewhere, simply smile
and respectfully decline. It's not the place....and it's not the time.
They realize that there's a self imposed "ritual" they have to go
through with themselves before executing aerobatics at low altitude
and doing low acro without this "mental tuning up " can spell real
trouble. This is why, as the number one rule I passed on to all acro
the acro pilots, especially display pilots, who got close enough to me
to hear my voice I always stressed;
"Never.....EVER....do anything with an airplane that someone asks you
to do unless you yourself are mentally and physically prepared to do
it....AND it's YOUR CALL!!"
Hm, yes. I never thougth this through before, but it rings true. I'm
never shy about a little showing off and I think most pilots are like
that, but I never liked being cajoled into doing something but I'm
uncertain as to whether that was because I have some sort of inate
wisdom or because I'm an anarchist at heart.



This sounds simple enough, but you would be absolutely amazed how easy
it is to slip into doing something with an airplane because this
person or that one is watching.
Ego and complacency are high on the list of potential killers for
aerobatic pilots.
Lord only knows what made a pilot of Ed's caliber weaken his
horizontal stabilizer to match the other weakened side, then go fly
hard maneuvers for the camera.
Yeah, it's a funny thing about ego. Without a sizable dose you're almost
as much of a menace in any kind of high performance flying as the guy
who has to much. My own experience has been a roller coaster of over and
under confidence of decreasing intensity throughout as I found my level
of competence and it's corresponding level of confidence. These ups and
downs never stopped, only decreased in amplitue and, I believe, have led
to a habit of constant self appraisel that has served me well in just
about any flying disciplne. IOW, experiece has eventually won out but I
was lucky to have acquired it!



What is completely puzzling to me and always will remain a puzzle to
me is that most any inexperienced pilot, even a student , if
asked whether THEY would have done what Ed did that day, and flown
that airplane on that day, at that time, for that purpose, would
probably instinctively say that they wouldn't have done it.
Well, I suppose there comes a point where your knowledge allows you to
see through certain practices that are laid down for the simple minded
that can be reasonably circumvented. Problem is, a little knowledge is a
dangerous thing in a case like this. It's not like flying an airplane
with a flat battery or something like that.
in the film about your Buddy, Douglas Bader, he's credited with
repeating often something his instructor told him and that was "rules
are for the guidance of wise men and the obedience of fools".
Trick is to live long enough to become a wise man..

Bertie- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I feel that the IAC competition environment and practice for
competition is a relatively safe way to do aerobatics. The reasons
a
1) when you practice a contest sequence, it is not impromptu, but
rather, it is a carefully planned flight;
2) the contest sequences are looked over by your peers (or your
betters) for sanity and safety;
3) you have a reasonable hard deck appropriate to your level of
equipment and experience;
4) you know that breaking the hard deck at a contest gets you major
penalties and/or disqualification;
5) nobody ever wins by flying lower than the other guy or by giving
the judges a scare.

When I start messing around with non-competition figures, I move up at
least 1K ft, depending on what it is. When I do these, it is for me,
not for anybody on the ground who might be looking. I do these
figures one at a time with repositioning between them.

The statistics look pretty good too. Nobody has died doing an
aerobatic sequence in front of judges here in the US in a very long
time. Practice accidents happen occassionally but probably due to
breaking one or more of the above rules.

10's,
K l e i n
I agree with this. The way acro competition is handled by the pilots and
support people involved with it is in my opinion excellent and indeed as
safe a path through aerobatics as one will find anywhere.


--
Dudley Henriques

Dudley Henriques wrote in
:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Dudley Henriques wrote in
:


Cool. Not a lot you can do when you leave a wreck somewhere anyway
but own up.
Wonder what he'd make of his countrymen's craze for burying vintage
aircraft.


Bertie


It's been a mess over there for sure. That last Hurricane was a real
shame. I lost three friends in the UK in unrelated accidents in the
last several years. Ted Girdler (ex- Red Arrow 1972 was killed several
years ago doing a show, and Ormond Hayden-Bailee was killed several
years ago. Both were in the old IFPF as charter members. Hoof
Proudfoot dug a hole at Duxford with a P38 doing a double roll.
Another first rate display pilot gone.
The list gets larger every year it seems.


eah, I saw Proubfoot display that -38 and I have to say I was less than
impressed. Loops were done with precious little room and he was doing
fairly low rolls pointed right at the crowd. This was at the 50th anniv
of D-day so was June 1994, about a year before he crashed it. I also
recently saw that RN guy who keeps crashing airplanes display a
Skyraider. To be fair he didn;t get as low as I've seen him do in the
past, but still, it all just didn;t look right and I thought it was all
kind of pointless, especailly since the airplane was fairly ugly anyway!


Bertie