P-51's in movie "Empire of the Sun"

In article ,
nt (Krztalizer) writes:

See my question to Gord about ground effect. Is it really there, as a
cushion, or is that a myth?

absolutely, it is there. get down low enough over flat seas and you can feel
'something', akin to being on a down bed, held over a hard bed.

Yabbut - Helicopters are _different_. (And the Navy, of course has to
be different, too, so Navy Helicopters are _very_ different)
In the case of a Fixed-Wing Aircraft, proximity to the ground kills
off the wingtip vortices, In Helicopters (Hmm... If Airplanes are
Fixed Wing Aircraft, I guess that means Helicopters are Broken Wing
Aircraft), you're either piling up the rotor wash faster than it can
run away, or the Earth is vastry increasing its repulsion of the noisy
beast in a last-ditch effort to keep it from marring the ground.

--
Pete Stickney
A strong conviction that something must be done is the parent of many
bad measures. -- Daniel Webster

In article ,
vincent p. norris writes:
..... as opposed to the A for amphibian variant.

I had never heard that. I thought the "A" merely meant the first mod
of the "5" model. Do you mean, literally, the A stood for
"amphibian"?

Well, since it's the Navy, and they couldn'b be like abyone else, it's
one of those "That Depends" things again.

For example, the Amphibian models of the PBY and PBM flying boats were
the PBY-5A and the PBM-5A.

But the F4U-1 Corsair with the bulged canopy was an F4U-1A.
(And the version with 4 cannons was an F4U-1D).

An uprated engine was usually signified by an 'F' tacked on, but not
always.

Fighter Bombers got a 'B' for a suffix.
Radar carrying airplanes gor an 'E'.
Night Fighters/Bombers got an 'N'.
ASW airplanes got an 'S'.
Elint airplanes got a 'Q'.

But it wasn't always consistant. An F6F-5E was a Night Fighter, and
an PBM-3E was an ASW Patrol Bomber.


--
Pete Stickney
A strong conviction that something must be done is the parent of many
bad measures. -- Daniel Webster

In article ,
nt (Krztalizer) writes:
said, the chances of getting a REAL russian plane for the film would be
pretty slim!

"Ice Station Zero" - a flight of four (?) MiG-21 models turns into a
real Phantom as it overflies the submarine.

I have a photo from 1981, holding that MiG 21 model (there was actually only
one - the flight of four was only a flight of one, copied several times). Its
quite large, perhaps 30" long or a bit more. The original model is in a
storeroom today in the San Diego Aerospace Museum.

Also didn't Donald
Pleasence get shot after James Gardner crashed theirs in 'The Great Escape'?

I thought that was a Bucker Bu181 Bestmann (or a derivative), but I
might be wrong.

As Captain Tenneal would say, "Well, you're wrong." (Sticking my neck out
here) I think its a 108. Dern few Bestmanns around. Anyone know for sure?

My money's on a Percival Proctor, or some such similar. Gipsy engine,
and fixed gear with wheel pants.

(As long as it doesn't have a shadow, I should do O.K. I don't have
good luck with shadows)


--
Pete Stickney
A strong conviction that something must be done is the parent of many
bad measures. -- Daniel Webster

I have a paperback book called "Battle of Britain" the making of a
film. It's by Leonard Mosley and is about all the tricks they used to
make the movie Battle of Britain. It's one of the most interesting I
have.

Van Gardner

Stephen Harding wrote in message ...
Cub Driver wrote:

Great movie, by the way--Empire of the Sun, I mean. But did you notice
that the entire tail section of the "Zero" turned? Probably it was an
AT-6 with a pointy tail cone pasted on.

This makes me wonder just what sort of "modifications" are
typically done by Hollywood to create actual flying aircraft
no longer in existence, or just not available to fly.

Obviously, the main "trick" is simply paint the aircraft in
the correct national markings. Thus a P-51 becomes an Me 109,
an AT-6 a Zero (seems the most common role for a Texan in a
movie). Some F-86s can become "Migs", and I vaguely recall
a C-47 becoming a G4M Betty at one time.

JN-4 "Jennies" served as German and British/US fighters in the
WWI movies of the 20's and 30's. Just a splash of paint and
a roundel made it a Sopwith Camel, or a black cross and it was
a "Fokker".

I believe in "Memphis Belle" a B-17G was converted to an F by
actual removal of the nose turret. Addition of a tail cone
to make an AT-6 into a Zero seems more than necessary, but
some directors are detail focused.

Then of course there are "faux warbird" props. Even during
WWII when the real thing might have been available, you often
see some dummied up aircraft. I think John Wayne in "Flying
Tigers" had some plywood P-40s with propellers that would
lazily spin trying to imitate a squadron cranking up for an
intercept. I think the BoB TV movie "Piece of Cake" used
some dummied up Spits for ground scenes as well. Didn't some
of them spin props too?

Of course with the increasing power of F/X in movies, you can
now film formations worth of Me 262s attacking B-24s or
whatever. The need for the actual warbird is pretty much gone.


SMH

Yabbut - Helicopters are _different_. (And the Navy, of course has to
be different, too, so Navy Helicopters are _very_ different)

Different, as in similar but not quite the same, or Different as in NQR?

In Helicopters you're either piling up the rotor wash faster than it can
run away,

That's the current theory.

or the Earth is vastry increasing its repulsion of the noisy
beast in a last-ditch effort to keep it from marring the ground.

That's the only current competing theory.
Having seen more than my share of between-the-wars European bomber designs, I
KNOW UGLY. Hell, if the earth repelled ugly designs, Brequet would hold all of
the endurance flight records.

Helicopters do not marr the ground with their visual presence - they are simply
generators for localized disruptions of the normal laws of physics.

v/r
Gordon

(QDurham) wrote:

Damnably impossible I'd say...the rules say 100 feet for 'pilot bombing' and
while this figure was likely (certainly) broken a _few_ times nobody actually
flew _knowingly_ with the prop tips
"3 to 5" feet above the water in a P2V. Trust me.

Sorry Gordo. Been there. Done that. Seaman's Eye bombing as well as mining
operations. Propwash in water. The Navy likes water. "Stay low and you can't
possibly fall very far."

We were "mining" Buckner Bay, Okinawa, once upon a time, leaving a propwash
wake in the water while the AF was up looking for us visually in F86s. Heard
one jet pilot say "I'm all the way down to 5 thousand feet. Wonder where they
are." Then another say something like "I'm down here in Australia. I'll go up
to Alaska and see if they are hiding behind a polar bear," or some such. Whish
whish zippy-zippy zoom-zoom!

We were at 5 feet. They never saw us. Hope we have better anti-mining
techniques now than we had then. Scary. If we could do that in barely 200+ kt
prop planes on a clear day with defense given time of arrival and looking for
us visually, what could the bad guys do on a dark and stormy night? Scary.

Quent (VP 29)


Ok Quent, all I can say is I'm damned glad that I wasn't with
you.

Just so that you won't think that I'm some pimply faced teen I
started my ASW career in 1954 in Lancasters for the RCAF on the
east coast (over the Atlantic of course), then on P2V-7 Neptunes
then on the Argus, about 9,000 hours logged in ASW + 4,000 logged
in Transport Command.

I've seen my share of low level, in the soup patrols. I've
returned to base with the tops of my thighs sore from smashing up
against the lap belt for many hours. I've never seen less than 30
feet on the rad-alt and I know well what that looks like.

I hope you'll allow me a small smile and a wink at your "3 to 5
feet".
--

-Gord.

"M. H. Greaves" wrote:

I think it would depend on the attitude and the angle of attack, also wing
area; the vulcan would float because of the wing area, it pushed a cushion
of air in front of it at low altitude.

I think that it's there for all a/c, look at that huge Russian
jobbie...'ekronoplanne' (or somesuch). It was designed to use
ground effect...I understand that you gotta be within about
one-half of your wingspan from the surface. You can almost
picture it, imagine why they use those 'winglets' at the tips of
Airbus and others, they prevent vortices by 'discouraging' the
higher pressure air from under the wings curling up and over the
tips to the lower pressure air above the wing.
--

-Gord.

I hope you'll allow me a small smile and a wink at your "3 to 5
feet".

As you wish. You've a lot more experience than I have -- at the higher
altitudes, of course. (snicker/wink)

Quent

It is a 108! i saw it in "mosquito sqdn" and "633 sqdn", and further to that
it was in a flypast issue magaizine (dont ask me which one because it was a
few years ago!!).
But it is a Bf108!!
"Krztalizer" wrote in message
...
said, the chances of getting a REAL russian plane for the film would
be
pretty slim!

"Ice Station Zero" - a flight of four (?) MiG-21 models turns into a
real Phantom as it overflies the submarine.

I have a photo from 1981, holding that MiG 21 model (there was actually
only
one - the flight of four was only a flight of one, copied several times).
Its
quite large, perhaps 30" long or a bit more. The original model is in a
storeroom today in the San Diego Aerospace Museum.



Also didn't Donald
Pleasence get shot after James Gardner crashed theirs in 'The Great
Escape'?

I thought that was a Bucker Bu181 Bestmann (or a derivative), but I
might be wrong.

As Captain Tenneal would say, "Well, you're wrong." (Sticking my neck
out
here) I think its a 108. Dern few Bestmanns around. Anyone know for
sure?

--
Graeme

Currently Reading: "The Day We Bombed Switzerland" - Granholm


Where the heck have you been, Graeme?

yfGordon
====(A+C====
USN SAR

Its always better to lose AN engine, than THE engine.

including the exploding cardboard hirri's???
"Van Gardner" wrote in message
om...
I have a paperback book called "Battle of Britain" the making of a
film. It's by Leonard Mosley and is about all the tricks they used to
make the movie Battle of Britain. It's one of the most interesting I
have.

Van Gardner

Stephen Harding wrote in message
...
Cub Driver wrote:

Great movie, by the way--Empire of the Sun, I mean. But did you notice
that the entire tail section of the "Zero" turned? Probably it was an
AT-6 with a pointy tail cone pasted on.

This makes me wonder just what sort of "modifications" are
typically done by Hollywood to create actual flying aircraft
no longer in existence, or just not available to fly.

Obviously, the main "trick" is simply paint the aircraft in
the correct national markings. Thus a P-51 becomes an Me 109,
an AT-6 a Zero (seems the most common role for a Texan in a
movie). Some F-86s can become "Migs", and I vaguely recall
a C-47 becoming a G4M Betty at one time.

JN-4 "Jennies" served as German and British/US fighters in the
WWI movies of the 20's and 30's. Just a splash of paint and
a roundel made it a Sopwith Camel, or a black cross and it was
a "Fokker".

I believe in "Memphis Belle" a B-17G was converted to an F by
actual removal of the nose turret. Addition of a tail cone
to make an AT-6 into a Zero seems more than necessary, but
some directors are detail focused.

Then of course there are "faux warbird" props. Even during
WWII when the real thing might have been available, you often
see some dummied up aircraft. I think John Wayne in "Flying
Tigers" had some plywood P-40s with propellers that would
lazily spin trying to imitate a squadron cranking up for an
intercept. I think the BoB TV movie "Piece of Cake" used
some dummied up Spits for ground scenes as well. Didn't some
of them spin props too?

Of course with the increasing power of F/X in movies, you can
now film formations worth of Me 262s attacking B-24s or
whatever. The need for the actual warbird is pretty much gone.


SMH