Could Canada Build

Could Canada build a complete modern jet fighter with missiles and
radar? Assume they have lots of money (10-20 billion dollars) and
seven or so years.

Canada is actually well positioned to build the airframe. Bombardier
has very significant experience building subsonic jets and presumably
could handle supersonic jets with time and money. The science behind
this is VERY well known. Heck even Burt Rutan can do this, surely the
nation of Canada can.

Pratt Canada builds lots of gas turbines. They specialize in smaller
jets but again given time and money could likely scale up.

Radar is a problem. Web searches make me believe that Canada only
builds radars for atmospheric research and air traffic control and one
military radar, which is used by maritime aircraft for periscope
searching.

Missiles are another problem. Web searches suggest that Canada builds
no missiles and more importantly no seaker heads. They might have to
start from scratch on this.

So, can Canada build a modern jet?

"Charles Talleyrand" wrote in message
om...
Could Canada build a complete modern jet fighter with missiles and
radar? Assume they have lots of money (10-20 billion dollars) and
seven or so years.


Not while they keep electing Liberals. Buying production helicopters, or
deciding to buy production helicopters, seems to be at the outer limit of
their ability under such leadership.

--
Scott

Imagine how the war would be different if the liberals were giving aid and
comfort to America.

tscottme wrote:
Charles Talleyrand wrote:

Could Canada build a complete modern jet fighter with missiles and
radar?

Not while they keep electing Liberals. Buying production helicopters,
or deciding to buy production helicopters, seems to be at the outer
limit of their ability under such leadership.

I don't see why Canadian engineers would be *incapable* of it.

The political considerations to which you allude are, of course,
relevant to whether such a project would be authorised, but my
brother-in-law would be more than a bit miffed by the suggestion that
they affect his competence as an engineer.

"Emmanuel Gustin" wrote in message ...
"Charles Talleyrand" wrote in message
om...

So, can Canada build a modern jet?

Of course, but the intelligent way to do it is to use an
off-the-shelf engine and missiles, and concentrate on
the airframe and avionics. Look at Sweden. Developing
everything from fresh would guaratuee that the
development will be excessively costly or produce
partial failures, leading to a repeat of the CF-105 debacle.

The other thing to do is to avoid relying top much on US
investment or support, as this could easily result in the
programme being killed off by the USA as a potential
competitor in the export market.

I think it would be almost impossible for Canada to build a world
class modern jet (roughly typhoon or rafale level) completely on its
own within a decade. Even a Gripen level craft would be so tough that
the risk would be unacceptable. That kind of disparate design and
specialist manufacturing capability cannot be built up in a decade to
the required competence anymore.

Please note that I do not intend to disparage Canadian scientists,
designers and engineers - the task envisioned is a major challenge to
any industrial society without recent design experiance.

Charles Talleyrand wrote:
Could Canada build a complete modern jet fighter with missiles and
radar? Assume they have lots of money (10-20 billion dollars) and
seven or so years.

We did it before - in fact it was way ahead of its time. But the
chicken-**** Conservative government that was in power at the time
caved to US pressures to scrap the Arrow.

Canada is actually well positioned to build the airframe. Bombardier
has very significant experience building subsonic jets and presumably
could handle supersonic jets with time and money. The science behind
this is VERY well known. Heck even Burt Rutan can do this, surely the
nation of Canada can.

Pratt Canada builds lots of gas turbines. They specialize in smaller
jets but again given time and money could likely scale up.

Radar is a problem. Web searches make me believe that Canada only
builds radars for atmospheric research and air traffic control and one
military radar, which is used by maritime aircraft for periscope
searching.

Given that our radar satellite systems make the US nervous (didn't we
have to agree to reduce resolution on RadarSat during US fly-overs?),
I think we can manage this without much trouble. McDonald-Detwiller
certainly has the talent to do this... and the folks at several other
firms which do international military contracts certainly have
additional talent that could be tapped. And the detection systems
used on the Cougar (correct designation?) certainly attest to the
ability to develop very sophisticated detection and tracking capabilities.

Missiles are another problem. Web searches suggest that Canada builds
no missiles and more importantly no seaker heads. They might have to
start from scratch on this.

Common technology --- most countries purchase these from others. And
reverse engineering the missles already in inventory isn;t such a hard
thing to do. Simple web searches would give all the technology, or
one could start with the basics as published in Smithsonian Air &
Space a while back...

So, can Canada build a modern jet?

Hell, yes.

I am curious as to why you base your assumptions on the results of
"web searches". Nor all companies are so stupid as to place
classified, sensitive, or advanced information on the web -- Canadian
companies don't tend to use the web to hype their military knowledge
as those of some other nations do.

Just because it is not on the web doesn't mean it doesn't exist! As
the SETI folks are fond of saying: "Absence of evidence is not
evidence of absence!".

"Robert Briggs" wrote in message
...
tscottme wrote:
Charles Talleyrand wrote:

Could Canada build a complete modern jet fighter with missiles and
radar?

Not while they keep electing Liberals. Buying production helicopters,
or deciding to buy production helicopters, seems to be at the outer
limit of their ability under such leadership.

I don't see why Canadian engineers would be *incapable* of it.

The political considerations to which you allude are, of course,
relevant to whether such a project would be authorised, but my
brother-in-law would be more than a bit miffed by the suggestion that
they affect his competence as an engineer.

Heaven help us from miffed Canadian engineers. I re-read my reply and
didn't find the words engineering, competence, or incapable. Don't be so
defensive.

--
Scott

Imagine how the war would be different if the liberals were giving aid and
comfort to America.

"Charles Talleyrand" wrote in message
om...
Could Canada build a complete modern jet fighter with missiles and
radar? Assume they have lots of money (10-20 billion dollars) and
seven or so years.

Canada is actually well positioned to build the airframe. Bombardier
has very significant experience building subsonic jets and presumably
could handle supersonic jets with time and money. The science behind
this is VERY well known. Heck even Burt Rutan can do this, surely the
nation of Canada can.

Pratt Canada builds lots of gas turbines. They specialize in smaller
jets but again given time and money could likely scale up.

Radar is a problem. Web searches make me believe that Canada only
builds radars for atmospheric research and air traffic control and one
military radar, which is used by maritime aircraft for periscope
searching.

If I recall correctly Litton Systems in Canada made the terrain following
radars for the cruise missle - did someone buy them out?


Missiles are another problem. Web searches suggest that Canada builds
no missiles and more importantly no seaker heads. They might have to
start from scratch on this.

Many countries skip this part.

The big thing is building an airframe and flight controls - very different
from a jetliner.

It could be done, but we'd be starting from zero and others have a long
lead - would it make any sense - no.

James Linn

We did it before - in fact it was way ahead of its time. But the
chicken-**** Conservative government that was in power at the time
caved to US pressures to scrap the Arrow.

Oh good christ, not the ****ing Arrow again. I swear, I don't think I know
of any country with as many angry, inferiority-complex afflicted people as
Canada seems to harbor. Or maybe it's just that most of them somehow end up
on this newsgroup.

"Ford Prefect" wrote in message ...
Charles Talleyrand wrote:
Radar is a problem. Web searches make me believe that Canada only
builds radars for atmospheric research and air traffic control and one
military radar, which is used by maritime aircraft for periscope
searching.

Given that our radar satellite systems make the US nervous (didn't we
have to agree to reduce resolution on RadarSat during US fly-overs?),
I think we can manage this without much trouble. McDonald-Detwiller
certainly has the talent to do this... and the folks at several other
firms which do international military contracts certainly have
additional talent that could be tapped. And the detection systems
used on the Cougar (correct designation?) certainly attest to the
ability to develop very sophisticated detection and tracking capabilities.


I think the antenna for the radar for RADARSAT-2 was built by a Canadian
company named EMS. I think they used their Atlanta office for this though.
Even so, they must have some clue in their two Canadian offices (they have
three main engineering offices total).

It's the right type of antenna (light weight planar array)
http://www.space.gc.ca/asc/eng/csa_s...2/inf_over.asp
http://www.emsstg.com/

McDermitt and company only manage and sell the data.


Missiles are another problem. Web searches suggest that Canada builds
no missiles and more importantly no seaker heads. They might have to
start from scratch on this.

Common technology --- most countries purchase these from others. And
reverse engineering the missles already in inventory isn;t such a hard
thing to do. Simple web searches would give all the technology, or
one could start with the basics as published in Smithsonian Air &
Space a while back...

Maybe. I'm sure eventually Canada could do this from first prinipals
if need be. I was hoping for an example of Canadian success in the field.


I am curious as to why you base your assumptions on the results of
"web searches". Nor all companies are so stupid as to place
classified, sensitive, or advanced information on the web -- Canadian
companies don't tend to use the web to hype their military knowledge
as those of some other nations do.

Just because it is not on the web doesn't mean it doesn't exist! As
the SETI folks are fond of saying: "Absence of evidence is not
evidence of absence!".

That's true.

But I'm not looking for classified information. However, most companies
put up web pages and issue press releases when they win major contracts
or make sigificant technological accomplishments. It's absolutley no
secret who makes the F/A-18 radar even if some specific techniques are
classified.

Besides, I don't have a pile of industry pundits camped out in my
living room to ask.

On 27 Jun 2004 23:42:50 -0700, (Charles Talleyrand)
wrote:

Could Canada build a complete modern jet fighter with missiles and
radar? Assume they have lots of money (10-20 billion dollars) and
seven or so years.

They already build modern jets, so a fighter shouldn't be much of a
leap at all. There's more than enough talent and capability in the
country.

Mary

--
Mary Shafer Retired aerospace research engineer