Safety pilot - logging cross-country

Can the safety pilot be PIC even while the left-seat pilot is not under
the hood?

I'm guessing, no, based on:
(g) Logging instrument flight time. (1) A person may log instrument
time only for that flight time when the person operates the aircraft
solely by reference to instruments under actual or simulated instrument
flight conditions.

In simulated conditions, once the hood is removed, it would seem to me
that only one or the other could be PIC at that point???

So... I'm beginning to sway to the side of, logging XC as safety pilot
seems to be a stretch!

Another good argument for getting that instructor rating:
(3) An authorized instructor may log as pilot-in-command time all
flight time while acting as an authorized instructor.

Mark Hansen wrote:

So what about the time when the left-seat pilot is not under the hood.
It sounds to me like they are making an exception for this case. Can
the safety pilot be PIC even while the left-seat pilot is not under
the hood? ... seems like a stretch to me.

To begin with, there is no safety pilot when the pilot flying is not under the
hood. So your "Can the safety pilot..." question doesn't make sense.

Aside from that, there is no requirement that the acting PIC is actually
manipulating the controls. Anyone aboard with the proper credentials can act as PIC.

Can
the safety pilot be PIC even while the left-seat pilot is not under
the hood? ... seems like a stretch to me.

The seat occupied isn't important; I take it you mean "pilot flying".
Given that, yes, the safety pilot can =be= PIC. It's the =logging= of
PIC time that is the issue. It sounds like he's trying to say "yes" and
not quite succeeding.

Jose
--
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On Wed, 14 Dec 2005 09:55:18 -0800, Mark Hansen
wrote:

On 12/14/2005 09:40, Peter Clark wrote:

On Wed, 14 Dec 2005 09:01:37 -0800, Mark Hansen
wrote:

On 12/14/2005 08:48, wrote:

Below is a copy of an FAA Chief Counsel written opinion:

How does answer the question set forth by the original poster?
His question was about logging x-country time, which the referenced
legal interpretation doesn't touch.

It does say:

The two pilots may, however, agree prior to initiating the flight that
the safety pilot will be the PIC responsible for the operation and
safety of the aircraft during the flight. If this is done, then the
safety pilot may log all the flight time as PIC time in accordance with
FAR 1.1 and the pilot under the hood may log, concurrently, all of the
flight time during which he is the sole manipulator of the controls as
PIC time in accordance with FAR 61.51(c)(2)(i).

So, if the flight is XC, wouldn't this allow both (assuming the prior
PF/PNF/ultimate safety condition is met) to log both PIC and XC (but
no landings for PNF) time?

So what about the time when the left-seat pilot is not under the hood.
It sounds to me like they are making an exception for this case. Can
the safety pilot be PIC even while the left-seat pilot is not under
the hood? ... seems like a stretch to me.

Plain-text: "If this is done, then the safety pilot may log all the
flight time as PIC time in accordance with FAR 1.1". So, as someone
else pointed out, PNF really isn't a "safety pilot" per-se, but is
more in that they accept ultimate responsibility for the flight and
can thus log *all* the flight time. Otherwise, they would just log
SIC for the time the PF is under the hood.

Hmmmm...

From Legal Interpretation # 92-52:

The two pilots may, however, agree prior to initiating the flight that
the safety pilot will be the PIC responsible for the operation and
safety of the aircraft during the flight. If this is done, then the
safety pilot may log all the flight time as PIC time in accordance with
FAR 1.1 and the pilot under the hood may log, concurrently, all of the
flight time during which he is the sole manipulator of the controls as
PIC time in accordance with FAR 61.51(c)(2)(i). Enclosed please find a
prior FAA interpretation concerning the logging of flight time under
simulated instrument flight conditions. We hope that this
interpretation will be of further assistance to you.

This seems to say that the entire flight, including takeoff, landing,
and the part where the other pilot was sole manipulator while VFR and
not under the hood, could be loggable by the safety pilot as PIC time.
This implies that a pilot may log PIC time ("in accordance with FAR
1.1") when he acts as PIC, irrespective of the number of pilots
required, and irrespective of who is sole manipulator. This seems to
contradict FAR 61.51(e)(1), which in (iii) provides for time when acting
as PIC in a multi-pilot-required situation, but does not address
multi-pilot-used-but-not-required situations. By its omission there one
may infer it is intended to be omitted.

I wonder if the Chief Councel intended this contradiction. I've found
that Legal Interpretations are not all that well worded.

Jose
--
You can choose whom to befriend, but you cannot choose whom to love.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

...and the pilot under the hood may log, concurrently, all of the
flight time during which he is the sole manipulator of the controls as PIC time....

The pilot under the hood can log PIC for "all of the flight time during
which he is sole manipulator of the controls". If he is not under the
hood, he can't log THAT flight time. So he can't log the landing
(unless they can figure out a safe way of landing with the pilot under
the hood being "sole manipulator of the controls").

Seems clear enough to me.

As for whether the pilot under the hood can log the flight time he logs
as PIC as crosscountry....who knows? THAT is not in the FARs either
way. So you are free to make your own interpretation, I guess, so long
as everyone who signs you off is also in agreement with you, with the
caveat that someone might disagree with your interpretation. And if
that someone is senior to you, it could cause problems.

Some situations aren't in the FARs. I own an Amphib and there is quite
a bit of ambiguity about exactly how to log it, mostly revolving around
do you log it as a Seaplane if you don't land on a lake on that flight?
And can a non-seaplane rated pilot someone else flying the plane
besides me) be legal as PIC in the plane (if otherwise legal in it as a
landplane)? I have my way of doing it, it is my interpretation, but
like I say, some things aren't in the FARs.

The FAQ's say "no", using the same logic as Andrew Sarangan.

However, it seems to me that you each could make a landing at the
destination airport and thus both meet the requirements of a X/C.

"S Herman" wrote in message
...
For IFR practice, in the situation where both pilots are logging PIC,
one as sole manipulator, the other as acting PIC, can both pilots log
cross-country (assuming the flight meets the length requirements) for
the purpose of meeting the requirements for the Instrument Rating?



What is the definition of a cross country.... I seem to recall something
along the lines of "A takeoff from one airport with a landing at another
airport utilizing pilotage, dead reckoning, radio nav or other means of
navigation. Kicker is this can include the little five minute hop from one
airport to a less busy one for landing practice... Now then... What are the
requirements for those cross country's for the instrument rating.... They
must be 50+NM right? Now consider this, you are acting as safety pilot on
someone elses cross country, the other person is under the hood. Who is
doing the landings? Hopefully its the guy under the hood so he/she can
practice an approach/breakout/landing sequence and thereby have a landing to
make their flight a cross country. So if they do the landing it must mean
that YOU didn't do the landing. So even though you were acting as PIC wile
the other person was under the hood, AND you may have covered more then
50NM, YOU did not perform the landing and therefor can NOT log it as XC.

Hi,

What is the definition of a cross country.... I seem to recall something
along the lines of...
[zap]
So even though you were acting as PIC wile the other person was under the
hood, AND you may have covered more then 50NM, YOU did not perform the
landing and therefor can NOT log it as XC.

I suggest reading the relavent FAR before coming to a conclusion.

Thanks,

Hilton