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#1
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I agree too. The "either-this-or-call-Piper" reality hit me when I was
pricing wheel fairings for my Warrior. Piper wanted around $6,000 for a new set compared to ~$2,300 from Globe Fiberglass. I was lucky to find a set on eBay. Marco Leon Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services ---------------------------------------------------------- ** SPEED ** RETENTION ** COMPLETION ** ANONYMITY ** ---------------------------------------------------------- http://www.usenet.com |
#2
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Plasticguy,
I'm currently eating a large crow over this. I did follow up with a more balanced observation the next day: "Intellectually, I know that the low volume radically affects the economics, but it really is hard to get over. When I think back on what it costs to have an injection mold made... well they ARE really expensive. Also, given the HUNDREDS of little bits and pieces needed for all these planes and models, each requiring a different mold. O.K. I'm over it (I'm still going to repaint the old stuff!!!). As for automotive plastic, I usually buy aftermarket. Most of it is pretty good. Mike" I humbly apologize over my previous (below) remarks. Plastic has become such a "common" material that we consumers have come to expect to be really inexpensive. Sometimes it is hard to separate the material itself from the finished part. As part of my rehab, I will place an order with your firm. Honest. Which company are you with? Thanks for your understanding, Mike plasticguy wrote: "Mike Spera" wrote in message ... Yes, I already looked at Plane Plastics and Vantage. Totally, absolutely, criminally outrageous pricing. Ten buck parts selling for two hundred dollars. Even with the "airplane" surcharge, an entire Piper remake should only cost about $200. There ain't any certification, tracking, insurance, or other "excuse" for these prices. Well Mike, I see we disagree. First I take exception to the term PIRATE. (but Pirate Plastics would be a cool name ) I manufacture low volume plastic parts for a living. So lets look at a few things. Tool amortization............I own the tools to make the parts,l they aren't cheap. Machine amortization......I own the capital equipment to make the parts, they aren't cheap LABOR.........................I have the skilled people who make the parts. People aren't cheap Overhead.......................I get to pay all the taxes, utility, rent, advertising and ALL the other costs. Material cost..................Plastic is "solid oil" it isn't cheap. I've seen 2 price increases this year alone the first was 21.5% the second was ONLY 15% PMA compliance costs.... I get to reverse engineer and create a drawing for EACH PART, PROVE IT FITS to the local MIDO guys, have it added to my PMA supplement, specify the material used, identify the vendor of the material, maintain lot tracability, comply with the Fastener Quality Act, cockpit flammability standards, VOC emission limits from the EPA and solid waste regulatory folks. I get to maintain a Quality Program and have everything in order for periodic inspections by the MIDO guys. THEN I GET TO ADD PROFIT and watch people complain about why stuff costs what it does. Scott. __________________________________________________ _____________________________ Posted Via Uncensored-News.Com - Accounts Starting At $6.95 - http://www.uncensored-news.com The Worlds Uncensored News Source |
#3
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I will take them out, repair the one or 2 cracks, paint them, and put
'em back in. What you are suggesting will work, but it won't look wonderful. When I redid the upholstery in my PA-30, I had an automotive upholstery guy repair the plastic pieces and cover them over with automotive headliner material. This is a soft, plushy, thin fabric that comes with an industry standard (ASTM/SAE) fire resistant label, making it legal to use in Part 23 aircraft not certificated in the commuter category and not used in Part-135 ops (I will gladly email anyone a PDF scan of a letter from the FAA to this effect, originally obtained by our own Rod Farlee) and it turns what would otherwise look like cheap, repaired, painted plastic into something that looks like it came out of a midrange Japanese sedan. I can't tell you exactly what this cost, but it could not have been much because it was part of a package that included (labor and materials) having the guy cover my plastic as described, repair and upholster my aluminum side panels, sew me a headliner, strip and reupholster my seats, make me a carpet, and then come out and help me with the final fit - all for $1200. Michael |
#4
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"Michael" wrote in message oups.com... I will take them out, repair the one or 2 cracks, paint them, and put 'em back in. What you are suggesting will work, but it won't look wonderful. When I redid the upholstery in my PA-30, I had an automotive upholstery guy repair the plastic pieces and cover them over with automotive headliner material. This is a soft, plushy, thin fabric that comes with an industry standard (ASTM/SAE) fire resistant label, making it legal to use in Part 23 aircraft not certificated in the commuter category and not used in Part-135 ops (I will gladly email anyone a PDF scan of a letter from the FAA to this effect, originally obtained by our own Rod Farlee) and it turns what would otherwise look like cheap, repaired, painted plastic into something that looks like it came out of a midrange Japanese sedan. I can't tell you exactly what this cost, but it could not have been much because it was part of a package that included (labor and materials) having the guy cover my plastic as described, repair and upholster my aluminum side panels, sew me a headliner, strip and reupholster my seats, make me a carpet, and then come out and help me with the final fit - all for $1200. Michael This is too attractive an idea to pass up, since all the plastic parts for an old Cessna are now awaiting SEM and I don't relish the idea of painting them using spray cans. Thanks in advance for the PDF and a helpful steer to the headliner material. I googled Farlee and found an interesting Avweb article on the legalities of using similar material and of flame resistance. Here it is: http://www.avweb.com/news/maint/182839-1.html And another by Bill O'Brien: http://www.faa.gov/avr/afs/news/arch...r/Interior.htm And some serious reading for homebuilders: http://www.bitchin-stitchin.com/trimtips.htm |
#5
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Thanks in advance for the PDF and a helpful steer to the headliner
material. Actually, it turns out the PDF is part of the article you cited so there is no need for me to email it: http://www.avweb.com/newspics/obrien.pdf As for the headliner material, well, if you are in the Houston area I can recommend an excellent inexpensive shop. In general, I think the article you cited is a good one, and it does show what a disaster our regulatory system is. The author boils down his conclusions to the following: 1) Effectively for this discussion, as Category 23, Part 91 operations, we are bound by 23.853(a), (b), (c), and (e); not (d) and (f). 2)We can use any interior materials we wish, as long as they are "flame-resistant." 3)"Flame-resistant" is defined in FAR 1. I agree with the above. 4)AC 23-2, Section 4(b) provides guidance concerning acceptable means, but not the only means, of complying with the FAR 1 definition of "flame-resistant." These procedures mimic FAR 23 Appendix F Section (e), the "horizontal test." This is questionable, and we have an FAA authority stating just the opposite. Quoting O'Brien from that letter: "However, since the FAA has not established a test to determine what is or what is not flame resistant, you will still have to have an acceptable industry certification stating that the new fabric and material you are using in your aircraft's interior is flame resistant." Given that I have this letter, I am going to go with O'Brien. I believe that doing your own test (or contracting someone else to do it for you) is neither necessary nor sufficient. The proper approach is to use a fabric with an industry standard flame resistant certification. Automotive fabrics meet this standard. Further, they are made to a standard developed by an industry consensus group, and thus meet the definition of standard parts. It's also interesting to note that we do not normally maintain certificates for standard parts or materials we use in aircraft. If you patch a small hole in the belly with ceconite and dope (or other process) for a fabric plane or 2024T3 (alclad or primed) and AD (solid) or CR (CherryMax mechanical) rivets, you are not required or expected to maintain a paper trail for the materials you used. You as the person performing this small, simple repair are responsible for using the correct materials and techniques, and your signature certifies that such were used. Note that this repair, like interior work, is considered preventive maintenance and may be performed by the pilot-owner (NOT by any random person). So what I am basically telling you is that if you go to the automotive upholstery supplier, verify that the bolt he is cutting from has a fire-resistant label referencing the ATSTM/SAE standard, and then use the fabric in your upholstery work (having the person of your choice assist), and then make the logbook entry to this effect, you're legal. In practice - this has not been an issue since AC 43.13 has been corrected. At this point pretty much everyone knows burn certs are not, and never were, required for Part 91 airplanes not used in Part 135 service that are not certificated in the commuter category. Note that manufacturers like Airtex and aviation specialty interior shops would really prefer you not know this, and will cast all sorts of FUD on it, because basically their entire business model depends on their customers not going to their local automotive upholstery shop, which will do a better job cheaper. Michael |
#6
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Thanks for the tip Michael. The window surrounds in our Aztec are Piper off
white, I'm wondering about the clean up or wear-ability of the automotive headliner material. What has your experience been? Jim |
#7
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Jim Burns wrote:
Thanks for the tip Michael. The window surrounds in our Aztec are Piper off white, I'm wondering about the clean up or wear-ability of the automotive headliner material. What has your experience been? My experience has been that the automotive headliner material wears and cleans up just fine. I've only had it on my plane for a year, but I've seen how it does in automobiles. Michael |
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