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#21
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Downdraft at 12,000 feet
"JGalban" wrote Which is exactly where you'd expect to find a rotor from the wave spilling over the mountain. Flying into a rotor is more than just your average downdraft. If it's strong, you can expect serious pitch and bank excursions. Simply put, the plane can easily be out of control. Combine that with IMC and loss of control would probably not be far behind. From what I have read, entering a real rotor, one would be lucky to be spat out with the wings still attached to the plane. Loss of control? Certainly. Loss of plane? Perhaps. Thoughts? Some out here can discuss rotors with authority, I'm sure. Jer ? ? ? -- Jim in NC |
#22
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Downdraft at 12,000 feet
"Morgans" wrote:
From what I have read, entering a real rotor, one would be lucky to be spat out with the wings still attached to the plane. Loss of control? Certainly. Loss of plane? Perhaps. Thoughts? Some out here can discuss rotors with authority, I'm sure. Can't say with authority but no way will I go anywhere near a rotor. High winds over the Rockies and I don't fly over the mountains. I have experienced downdrafts and updrafts but nowhere near a rotor. Ron Lee |
#23
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Downdraft at 12,000 feet
Newps writes:
No certificated GA plane is unstable in roll. This conflicts with other claims I've read in this group from time to time, to the effect that all GA planes are unstable, IIRC. -- Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail. |
#24
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Downdraft at 12,000 feet
Morgans schrieb:
From what I have read, entering a real rotor, one would be lucky to be spat out with the wings still attached to the plane. Thoughts? Some out here can discuss rotors with authority, I'm sure. Glider pilots use rotors routinely as an elevator to the wave. At some places, the tow plane tows them right into the rotor. (Formation flight into the rotor.) So far, all wings still in place and everybody still alive. Just make sure you stay well below vB. Stefan |
#25
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Downdraft at 12,000 feet
Recently, Mxsmanic posted:
Newps writes: No certificated GA plane is unstable in roll. This conflicts with other claims I've read in this group from time to time, to the effect that all GA planes are unstable, IIRC. Two different issues, I suspect. No planes are stable indefinitely, while others are quite sensitive and will behave as described. Neil |
#26
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Downdraft at 12,000 feet
Newps,
No certificated GA plane is unstable in roll. Define unstable. -- Thomas Borchert (EDDH) |
#27
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Downdraft at 12,000 feet
"Newps" wrote in message . .. Danny Deger wrote: I used to own a 35 model Bonanza and it was unstable in roll and would easily enter a "death spiral". No certificated GA plane is unstable in roll. I simply disagree. A GA plane, if put it a small roll can have the roll increase if the pilot does nothing. The 35 model Bonanza is unstable in roll. Go rent one and see for yourself. If you put it in a 30 degree bank and let go of the stick, the roll will increase until you are in a death spiral. That is why so many Bonanzas end up in one compared with other airplanes. As far as I know, all Cessnas are stable in roll, i.e. without pilot intervention they roll back to wings level. I have a Masters in Aerospace engineering and my thesis was how to certify light aircraft. The regs clearly state unstable in roll is acceptable. They must be stable in pitch, but not in roll. Danny Deger |
#28
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Downdraft at 12,000 feet
"Thomas Borchert" wrote in message ... Newps, No certificated GA plane is unstable in roll. Define unstable. If the pilot does nothing, the disturbance (e.g. pitch or roll) will increase. Danny Deger |
#29
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Downdraft at 12,000 feet
Morgans wrote:
"JGalban" wrote Which is exactly where you'd expect to find a rotor from the wave spilling over the mountain. Flying into a rotor is more than just your average downdraft. If it's strong, you can expect serious pitch and bank excursions. Simply put, the plane can easily be out of control. Combine that with IMC and loss of control would probably not be far behind. From what I have read, entering a real rotor, one would be lucky to be spat out with the wings still attached to the plane. Loss of control? Certainly. Loss of plane? Perhaps. Thoughts? Some out here can discuss rotors with authority, I'm sure. Jer ? ? ? There are rotors, then there are ROTORS! When the winds aloft, at mountain top altitude (~12,000), are over 25 KN, the local winds are often over 50 KN because of the effect of the wind flowing down the (constricted) valleys. So, over 25 KN winds aloft, I choose to stay FAR away from the rotors... and WATCH where the waves set-up, as the rotors are under where the waves peak. Now, just because there is not enough water in the air to see the wave does not mean that they don't exist... just that you can not see them. Winds aloft under 20 KN create a little wave, and some benign (read FUN) rotors. I am often there in an airplane or glider, touching the edge of the rotor (no visible moisture), to get lift or sink as needed. A rotor may be relatively smooth, or VERY rough. It just depends on the nature of the wind on that day and in that location. I think it is fun to "go play in the wave" near Leadville, Colorado and the Ten Mile Range. It is ideally set-up as relatively north-south, and with a 20 KN wind from the west, it gives an excellent training situation so that a pilot (with a qualified mountain instructor on board) can experience the wave. We fly in the lift, then over to the sink, then go touch the rotor and then fly back to the lift. DO NOT TRY THIS ON YOUR OWN! I have enough experience to know where the wave and the rotor are, and always have several "outs" pre-planned in case I made an incorrect choice. Best regards, Jer/ "Flight instruction and mountain flying are my vocations!" -- Jer/ (Slash) Eberhard, Mountain Flying Aviation, LTD, Ft Collins, CO CELL 970 231-6325 EMAIL jer at frii.com http://users.frii.com/jer/ C-206 N9513G, CFII Airplane&Glider FAA-DEN Aviation Safety Counselor CAP-CO Mission&Aircraft CheckPilot BM218 HAM N0FZD 247 Young Eagles! |
#30
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Downdraft at 12,000 feet
"T o d d P a t t i s t" wrote in message ... "Morgans" wrote: From what I have read, entering a real rotor, one would be lucky to be spat out with the wings still attached to the plane. Rotors can be strong or relatively mild. It's fairly common to use rotors to climb into the mountain wave in a glider. They can be extremely violent, but the stronger they are the more likely that you can see them, or wave phenomenon near them, and stay out of the worst part. A strong rotor is associated with a strong wave which will have strong up and down drafts that open a wave gap (the "Foehn gap") in solid overcast near the rotor. It's not uncommon to climb through that gap and see solid overcast everywhere except in the gap. Moisture in the air will produce lenticular clouds marking the position of the wave, and that gives another clue to the wave/rotor position. Often, the rotor will be marked by a rotating cloud in the core. Loss of control? Certainly. I've been rolled 90 degrees on tow, even though I was expecting wave activity. Loss of plane? Perhaps. I think "perhaps" is correct, it has happened, but it's extremely rare. Experienced glider pilots regularly seek out strong wave activity, and experienced tow pilots regularly tow gliders to the front (rising) edge of the rotor. Commercial glider operations in Colorado have made a business of drawing glider pilots from around the world to fly in the waves of the Rockies. The trick is knowing where the wave and rotor are. Thoughts? Some out here can discuss rotors with authority, I'm sure. All of this talk about rotors makes me glad I fly in Houston Texas with the closest mountain hundreds of miles away. Danny Deger |
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