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#21
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Widower stabbed Air Traffic Controller?
"Stefan" wrote in message ... Steven P. McNicoll wrote: I did. The report indicated the controller erred. You said, "just about everybody made mistakes, except maybe the controller." Apparently you didn't read the report. If you read an understood the report, you know exactly what I meant. I won't enter your game. Stefan That, Stefan, is the mark of a demagogue. You obviously don't have the slightest damn clue what you are talking about. plonk! |
#22
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Widower stabbed Air Traffic Controller?
"Stefan" wrote in message ... Thomas Borchert wrote: Hmm. I don't quite get it either. What DO you mean? Sigh, ok. Replace "mistake" by "is to blame" and then you might understand what I've meant. If somebody is given a task which is impossible to accomplish, then who is to blame? The one who failed or the one who gave him the task? The one who ACCEPTED the impossible task. No one forced the controller to work under those conditions. He could have closed his station and walked out, forcing all traffic to be either delayed or rerouted. You know that as well as I do. |
#23
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Widower stabbed Air Traffic Controller?
Juan Jimenez wrote:
The one who ACCEPTED the impossible task. No one forced the controller to work under those conditions. He could have closed his station and walked out, forcing all traffic to be either delayed or rerouted. You know that as well as I do. I don't know this. in fact, I know quite the opposite. I know that the whole idea of the hierarchic structure involved was that the controller should trust that the established and approved workflow was reasonable. I also know that the controller was unaware of what systems didn't work and so was't aware that the safety mechanisms he relied on were inop. And last I know that if he refused the work he would have risked to be fired that very evening. Not really an option with a family. But then, why am I replying since you've plonked me anyway. Stefan |
#24
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Widower stabbed Air Traffic Controller?
"Stefan" wrote in message ... I also know that the controller was unaware of what systems didn't work and so was't aware that the safety mechanisms he relied on were inop. What inoperable safety mechamisms led to this collision? |
#25
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Widower stabbed Air Traffic Controller?
"Stefan" wrote in message ... Juan Jimenez wrote: The one who ACCEPTED the impossible task. No one forced the controller to work under those conditions. He could have closed his station and walked out, forcing all traffic to be either delayed or rerouted. You know that as well as I do. I don't know this. in fact, I know quite the opposite. I know that the whole idea of the hierarchic structure involved was that the controller should trust that the established and approved workflow was reasonable. I also know that the controller was unaware of what systems didn't work and so was't aware that the safety mechanisms he relied on were inop. And last I know that if he refused the work he would have risked to be fired that very evening. Not really an option with a family. But then, why am I replying since you've plonked me anyway. Oh, so if the pilot doesn't preflight, and therefore doesn't know his aircraft has broken systems, doesn't perform checks and just does the flight so he won't lose his job and winds up killing everyone, it's the company's fault. Hmm. That sure is an interesting bit of logic. You wouldn't be related to this controller, a friend of his or perhaps a member of his labor union? Nah, couldn't be. I'll plonk you anyway. I can see where this is coming from... |
#26
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Widower stabbed Air Traffic Controller?
Juan Jimenez wrote:
Oh, so if the pilot doesn't preflight, and therefore doesn't know his aircraft has broken systems, doesn't perform checks and just does the flight so he won't lose his job and winds up killing everyone, it's the company's fault. Hmm. That sure is an interesting bit of logic. You wouldn't be I can see the 747 captain not believing his mechanics but instead creeping in every hole of his aircraft, checking every nut, measuring tolerances, measuruing hydraulic pressures, X-ray the wings for cracks, etc.etc. before every flight... related to this controller, a friend of his or perhaps a member of his labor union? Nah, couldn't be. I'll plonk you anyway. I can see where this is coming from... You've already claimed once to plonk me and haven't done so, so why would you do it now? Do you even know how to plonk somebody? Stefan |
#27
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Widower stabbed Air Traffic Controller?
"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote:
"David Cartwright" wrote in message ... I think the original poster perhaps chose the wrong words. While it can't be denied that the controller made a mistake, this mistake was an understandable one given the circumstances in which he found himself (working multiple desks, with some equipment out of action, etc). It could be said that he also made a mistake by accepting the workload when he came on shift and had it handed to him, but I don't know enough about the circumstances and/or the relationship between staff and management to comment on that. Priority one in ATC is separation. He lost separation and all the equipment needed to maintain it seems to have been working. He was, however, not the only one who made a mistake. One realisation that came from this accident, for instance, is that when TCAS and an ATC person tell you two different things, you go with TCAS - which wasn't the case in this incident as one pilot went with the ATC command. Similarly, it seems that the ATC management were at fault by allowing a skeleton staff to run such a crucial operation. But TCAS and an ATC person weren't telling him two different things at the time he responded to the controller's instruction to descend. The TCAS RA came later. Indeed...and he should have immediately complied with it instead of continuing with the instruction from the ATC operator. It was mentioned that the Russian pilot wasn't well informed about the operation of TCAS and wasn't aware that when he was instructed by an RA to climb that the conflict a/c would have been instructed to descend. -- -Gord. (use gordon in email) |
#28
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Widower stabbed Air Traffic Controller?
Gord Beaman wrote:
It was mentioned that the Russian pilot wasn't well informed about the operation of TCAS and wasn't aware that when he was instructed by an RA to climb that the conflict a/c would have been instructed to descend. Correction...I should have said "The Russian PIC wasn't well informed..." The Russian copilot wanted to comply with the RA I gathered but apparently the PIC over-rode him...that was my read anyway... -- -Gord. (use gordon in email) |
#29
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Widower stabbed Air Traffic Controller?
"Gord Beaman" wrote in message
... Correction...I should have said "The Russian PIC wasn't well informed..." The Russian copilot wanted to comply with the RA I gathered but apparently the PIC over-rode him...that was my read anyway... From the programme I saw on Channel 5 about the incident (which was, perhaps surprisingly, well compiled and quite balanced) there was certainly a high level of disagreement between the PIC and his colleague over whether to obey TCAS or ATC. D. |
#30
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Widower stabbed Air Traffic Controller?
"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
ink.net... If somebody is given a task which is impossible to accomplish, then who is to blame? The one who failed or the one who gave him the task? The controller was not given a task that was impossible to accomplish. Very few tasks are absolutely impossible to accomplish. Whether something is possible for a particular person with particular skills to accomplish in a particular situation is another thing entirely. The aviation industry goes to great pains to take note of the human factors involved in what goes on, and this entire incident is (very sadly) an excellent example of how a combination of (often unrelated) human factors issues can combine to cause loss of life. D. |
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