BD-5 crash in Australia

"RapidRonnie" wrote in message
oups.com...
On May 21, 8:12 am, "Wayne Paul" wrote:

My guess is that the "spinal injuries" occured on impact. The BD-5's
cockpit design offers little to no pilot protection.

Jim Bede openly felt that was unnecessary because most BD-5s would
never fly or if they did would either only fly a few hours and be
junked when the owner died or would crash so badly it would make
little difference how he built it.

I don't think Richard Van Grunsven puts a lot of crashworthiness
effort in the RVs, either. They do fly better than Bede designs
though.


It wasn't my attempt to imply the crashworthiness of the BD-5 is less then
other homebuilts. It was simply to affirm the primary spinal injury was
caused by the impact. I am sure my HP-14 sailplane isn't much better. I
too, for all practical purposes, am sitting directly on the belly skin.
(http://www.soaridaho.com/photogaller.../17900_MSL.jpg)
(http://tinyurl.com/2esvov)

I am sure a gear-up hard landing would not be good for my previousely
injured spine.

Wayne
HP-14 "6F"
http://www.soaridaho.com/

RapidRonnie wrote:
I don't think Richard Van Grunsven puts a lot of crashworthiness
effort in the RVs, either. They do fly better than Bede designs
though.


The one guy I know of to crash an RV hit a large concrete block and flipped completely
over. He broke the canopy open and crawled out with minor injuries. The airplane (RV-6A)
was essentially a total writeoff though.

Unfortunately, he died of a heart attack a couple years ago.

As far as extracting someone from a wreck, I was taught to never move someone unless they
are in some other form of imminent danger (the most common example given was a burning
vehicle).

Bob Martin wrote:
RapidRonnie wrote:
I don't think Richard Van Grunsven puts a lot of crashworthiness
effort in the RVs, either. They do fly better than Bede designs
though.


The one guy I know of to crash an RV hit a large concrete block and
flipped completely over. He broke the canopy open and crawled out with
minor injuries. The airplane (RV-6A) was essentially a total writeoff
though.

Unfortunately, he died of a heart attack a couple years ago.

As far as extracting someone from a wreck, I was taught to never move
someone unless they are in some other form of imminent danger (the most
common example given was a burning vehicle).

Right on, and one other thing that is relevant, if loss of life isn't
imminent, burns will heal, a severed spinal cord probably won't. That is
why accident rescues should be left to professionals, not bystanders.
But then hindsight is easy to use, forsight is almost impossible, and
the current situation almost always seems more critical than it is.

YMMV

Back to lurking.

George

On Mon, 21 May 2007 07:12:12 -0600, "Wayne Paul"
wrote:


"George" wrote in message
et...
After the pics of how he was extricated I think we can explain the "spinal
injuries."

George

And exactly how would you have extracted him the small cockpit of a burning
BD-5? Jaws of death after the fire was out? Wait for a hoist?

My guess is that the "spinal injuries" occured on impact. The BD-5's
cockpit design offers little to no pilot protection.



I dont wish to pursue this but I believe that the spinal injury had
occurred before pulling him out of the cockpit.

....so now when you guys endlessly flame yawn for not flying his bd5
consider the reality and risks that he faces.

engine was a turbocharged honda auto engine of about 100hp.
wings had modern aerodynamics.
in the BD5-a,b,c,d lineage it was probably a BD5-q with all the mods
onboard.

I'm off in to see him.

Stealth Pilot

On Tue, 22 May 2007 02:40:11 GMT, George wrote:

Bob Martin wrote:
RapidRonnie wrote:
I don't think Richard Van Grunsven puts a lot of crashworthiness
effort in the RVs, either. They do fly better than Bede designs
though.


The one guy I know of to crash an RV hit a large concrete block and
flipped completely over. He broke the canopy open and crawled out with
minor injuries. The airplane (RV-6A) was essentially a total writeoff
though.

Unfortunately, he died of a heart attack a couple years ago.

As far as extracting someone from a wreck, I was taught to never move
someone unless they are in some other form of imminent danger (the most
common example given was a burning vehicle).

Right on, and one other thing that is relevant, if loss of life isn't
imminent, burns will heal, a severed spinal cord probably won't. That is
why accident rescues should be left to professionals, not bystanders.
But then hindsight is easy to use, forsight is almost impossible, and
the current situation almost always seems more critical than it is.

YMMV

my mileage does vary.
skin burns are superficial. lung tissue burns are often fatal.
the guys in the circumstances did absolutely follow the correct course
of actions. if he had been in the flames any longer the lung tissue
damage would have been fatal. as it is now he is alive but cannot
survive without oxygen supplementation.the spinal damage was already
done, sadly.

I'm proud of the efforts of my fellow pilots. they took some gutsy
actions at considerable personal risk.
.....and I often doubted that they ever had it in them.

Stealth Pilot
member of the Sport Aircraft Builders Club of Western Australia.

On Mon, 21 May 2007 10:32:49 GMT, Doug Gray
wrote:


http://www.thewest.com.au/default.as...ontentID=29246

it probably sounds as though I have some emotion about george's posts.
I dont. I just have little time to post at present.

peter is truely amazed that the story reached america.
the video footage was taken by a 17 year old enthusiast evidently.

I did ask tonight as to what they thought was the cause.

the BD5 has a turbocharged honda auto engine with augmenting electric
cooling fan to the radiator. it is fuel injected. a beautiful
installation.
propeller drive shaft is fitted with an override clutch (sprag clutch)
the takeoff was after a long taxi and surrounding aircraft made the
ambient noise level a little higher than usual.
they think that the long time on the ground may have exposed a heat
problem in the fuel supply which induced a bubble (or bubbles) of air
in the fuel delivery. just after takeoff and after the wheels were up
the bubbles in the fuel hit the engine and stopped it. with an
override clutch the prop and drive train continue rotating and making
noise and the absense of the engine noise was imperceptible in the
ambient noise around him.
peter only became aware of the stopped engine after a scan of the
instruments and tacho by which time much of the aircraft's momentum
had been lost although he had started to effect a glide recovery.
the aircraft impacted the ground before he could effect a restart.

the glitch occurred right at the critical period before full cruise
climb speed had been achieved.

my observation is that bd-5's with sprag clutches in the drive trains
need a fadec system that understands that the engine is required to be
delivering power and can effect an immediate autorestart whenever
rpm's cease. such are the perfections of 20-20 hindsight.

the good news from tonight is that he has some feeling in his legs.

damn! we lost one of the neatest little aircraft on the airfield.
Stealth Pilot

Stealth Pilot wrote:
On Tue, 22 May 2007 02:40:11 GMT, George wrote:

Bob Martin wrote:
RapidRonnie wrote:
I don't think Richard Van Grunsven puts a lot of crashworthiness
effort in the RVs, either. They do fly better than Bede designs
though.

The one guy I know of to crash an RV hit a large concrete block and
flipped completely over. He broke the canopy open and crawled out with
minor injuries. The airplane (RV-6A) was essentially a total writeoff
though.

Unfortunately, he died of a heart attack a couple years ago.

As far as extracting someone from a wreck, I was taught to never move
someone unless they are in some other form of imminent danger (the most
common example given was a burning vehicle).
Right on, and one other thing that is relevant, if loss of life isn't
imminent, burns will heal, a severed spinal cord probably won't. That is
why accident rescues should be left to professionals, not bystanders.
But then hindsight is easy to use, forsight is almost impossible, and
the current situation almost always seems more critical than it is.

YMMV

my mileage does vary.
skin burns are superficial. lung tissue burns are often fatal.
the guys in the circumstances did absolutely follow the correct course
of actions. if he had been in the flames any longer the lung tissue
damage would have been fatal. as it is now he is alive but cannot
survive without oxygen supplementation.the spinal damage was already
done, sadly.

I'm proud of the efforts of my fellow pilots. they took some gutsy
actions at considerable personal risk.
....and I often doubted that they ever had it in them.

Stealth Pilot
member of the Sport Aircraft Builders Club of Western Australia.

Thanks for the "rest of the story," that wasn't readily apparent in the
news write up. That makes it a different story all together. But I stand
by my "if loss of life isn't imminent" comment, from your comments
apparently it WAS imminent, it just didn't show in the text or pics.
And you are right, lung tissue is the one soft tissue that is as fragile
as a spinal cord, gotta have it. Glad your fellow pilots got him out of
there alive.

George

Stealth,

Do you know if this was a compressive spine injury? I've read a bit
about German Me-163 pilots being killed by using the wrong landing
skid setting. It seems that if you don't unlock the skid, that ship
would land hard enough to crush vertibrae (sp?) I've also read about a
particular early model ultralight, don't know the type, that used
nothing more than a canvas sling for a seat. On hard landing, pilots
would impact the Earth with their backsides causing spinal injuries
and/or death. Ditto several incidents of paraglider pilots, who fly
supine, impacting terrain.

I may be the only one on the NG with a plane that WAS designed to
crash. The elevator was placed in front of the wing because Wilbur
Wright wanted as much structure in front of him as possible when the
enevitable crash occurred. The rudder also hinges up in pantograph
fashion to help prevent damage. Of course, after 10 seconds in the
cradle, you too would be convinced that a Wright machine can kill you
in at least 100 ways. I'm still not entirely convinced that I want to
try flying it.

Harry

Stealth,

Sorry if my original comment hit anywhere near a nerve. It was a fairly
innocent comment about what the pics showed and had no malice intended
for anyone. But look what it grew to?

My prayers too are with your friend.

Pics can reveal only so much,and also a news write up, your final
explanation, more of a first hand revelation, revealed a lot more,
thanks for answering so even handedly, which some don't do.

All the best,

George

"Stealth Pilot" wrote

the good news from tonight is that he has some feeling in his legs.

THAT is good news, indeed.
--
Jim in NC