Charles Lindbergh, racist & Nazi sympathizer

James Linn wrote:

"S. Sampson" wrote in message
...
"codefy" wrote
Some American hero.

When Lindbergh died in Hawaii did he consider the people there with
any more maturity than when he made his racist comments or did he just
consider them his coolies ?

If there's a Hell I'm sure Lindbergh is roasting there for his racism
& Nazi sympathies.

You have to wonder how Lindbergh's grandson deals with that nasty part
of the legend that he's living off of.

Lindbergh's been dead longer than you've been alive. Only a red-neck
would equate pacifism with sympathism.

Just watched A&E Biography on the man - he was more than sympathetic - he
admired Hitler. At one point he was going to move to Germany(1938), but
Kristallnacht disturbed him and his wife, so he never bought the house and
did move back to America.

Some timetimes we all need a face slap to wake us up.



I'd have to say that while he was a mechanical genius and great aviator, he
wasn't a great intellectual. He seems to have absorbed the views of some of
his friends and made them his own. While his views on eugenics and Jews were
and are abhorrent, I'm not sure they came from his heart either. He was
caught up in hero worship - of Hitler and others. And he seemed also to be
a contrarians - whatever Roosevelt said was bad. It cost him his Army Air
Corps Career.

Most folks of the time wouldn't shed a tear if you hung a black man from a tree
either. And Jews didn't have a large fan club either. Times change as does
morality. Hittler had fans here & in the UK. Some misguided folk still
are......






And yes he was snowed by the Nazis about the power of the Luftwaffe - they
played him - and he delivered the message the Nazi's wanted -that the
Luftwaffe was invincible. Lindbergh passed the message on to Ambassador
Kennedy - who was more than ready to believe it, being anti British. More
discerning people in the state department took it with a grain of salt.

I'm sure someone here has read a decent biography of the man which covers
this stuff.

James Linn

Well till the Battle of Britan they were unbeaten.......

"George R. Gonzalez" wrote:

"Cecil Turner" wrote in message
...

Make sure it also covers his work in the Pacific during WWII as a civilian
tech rep in
front-line units (flight test and profiling P-38s that resulted in nearly
double
operational range). Provides a bit of balance.

rgds,
KTF

I've always wondered about this..... I first read abot his range-enhancing
exploits in reader's Digest when I was about 13 yrs old, and it greatly
impressed me at the time.

Since then, I've picked up a few old airplane tech manuals, and at least in
the B-17, B-29, B-24, P-51 ones I've seen, they ALL have charts in the back
with all kinds of airspeed-vs-manifold pressure vs rpm vs range curves.
The B-24 manual IIRC even goes to great lengths explaining the right way to
lean out the engines, and several scary stories about the crews that never
made it back to base because they forgot to go to lean-running mode.

So did the P-38 go out to the pilots without any range vs airspeed vs rpm vs
mixture charts??

Or did the pilots ignore the charts, or what?

Methinks the Linberg story is a bit too neat to be totally correct.

Regards,

George

The guys were a little too busy staying out of someone's gun sight to
experiment. Their training didn't push such things ether.

Don't forget that after Pearl Harbor Lindbergh volunteered for active duty and
was denied several times by Roosevelt who harbored a grudge over Lindbergh's
comments on the superiority of the Luftwaffe in the late 1930's.

He tried to resume his Col.'s commission in the reserve. It's a little leaden
of him to insist on that; had he shown up at an enlistment office they would
have had to take him and he would have lasted about a week as a private;
national outcry would have insisted he take the role his talents suited him to.

A superiority that was as much Roosevelt's responsibility as it was Hitler's.
I think you must mean Congress here.

Lindbergh's comments in those days were that the German's were so superior to
us and we were so hopelessly outclassed we could not possibly affect the
outcome of a modern war in Europe so why bother.

Actually it was such comments to the British "Cliveden" set that confirmed
their appeasement policies. Lindbergh's comments about the prowess of German
bombers created visions of London in ruins, but in fact the bombers then in
service--the ones he had seen in Germany--had the range for Britain only
without a bombload. Now, if he was the aeronautical genius he was claimed to
be, he would have noticed this. Yet he reported otherwise. He was a dupe or a
co-conspirator.

He was right of course the US Army was not even in the top ten in size in the
world. Bulgaria had a larger standing army. A single Luftflotte in 1940 had
more aicraft than the entire
US Army Air Corps.

"Standing"? Try figure in the reserves and the National Guard into that--as
well as America's industrial capacity, the wonder of the world in 1940. As for
that Luftflotte, try figuring in the orders placed in 1940--more than the
Luftwaffe posessed.

Lindbergh was taken in many ways by such ruses as the only handful of a bomber
type being flown from factory to factory and put back in the "production line"
for him to examine all
over again.

Well, check out the big brain on Lindy. No wonder the AAF didn't want him back.
Can't see them tricking someone like Doolittle like this.

"codefy" wrote in message
om...
Some American hero.

When Lindbergh died in Hawaii did he consider the people there with
any more maturity than when he made his racist comments or did he just
consider them his coolies ?

If there's a Hell I'm sure Lindbergh is roasting there for his racism
& Nazi sympathies.

You have to wonder how Lindbergh's grandson deals with that nasty part
of the legend that he's living off of.

The majority of US citizens shared Charles Linderghs views. They wanted to
avoid a war.

There is coverage of the affair, "Lindburghs Des Moines Speech" in this
article (70 page preface, the book is excellent):
http://www.csulb.edu/~kmacd/Preface.htm

They can't be called Anti-Semitic. When Lindburgh points out that some
Jewish groups want to get the US into war he was telling the simple truth
and he sympathizes with them.

Also remember there was no 'holocaust' at this time and no 'holocaust
industry' to raise consiciouncess of it. That didn't really exist till
1968. (I think a case can be made for arguing that without full blown US
and UK involvement there never would have been a holocaust; the Nazis wanted
to expell jews and break their social power in media, banking, finance,
proffesions and worked at re-settling them in Palestine on the basis of the
Balfur declaration or resettling in Madagascar etc. Highly assimilated jews
could survive in the German military eg the first officer of the Bismark was
jewish)

Roosevelt had to work very hard to get the US into war against Germany. US
destroyers escorting convoys were attacking German u-boats for almost 1 year
while the Germans did not fire back and the rare incidents when u-boats did
fire back were hyped as much as possible. By the time Pearl Harbour came
about Hitler did not have a choice as he was locked into treaties with the
Japanese.

The Case for Pearl Harbor Revisionism
http://theoccidentalquarterly.com/vo...arlharbor.html


If you look at the state of the world today, the destruction of white people
in Europe, and the US Lindbergh was absolutely correct. Another war would
finnish the white race and it effectvely has. Some, like you (I suspect
you are jewish?), might consider that a good thing.

"The Enlightenment" wrote in message

Also remember there was no 'holocaust' at this time and no 'holocaust
industry' to raise consiciouncess of it. That didn't really exist
till 1968. (I think a case can be made for arguing that without
full blown US and UK involvement there never would have been a
holocaust; the Nazis wanted to expell jews and break their social
power in media, banking, finance, proffesions and worked at
re-settling them in Palestine on the basis of the Balfur declaration
or resettling in Madagascar etc. Highly assimilated jews could
survive in the German military eg the first officer of the Bismark
was jewish)

This is either monumental ignorance or an apology for the some of the worst
monsters in history.

--
http://www.delversdungeon.dragonsfoot.org
Remove the X's in my email address to respond.
"Damn you Silvey, and your endless fortunes." - Stephen Weir
I hate furries.

"JDupre5762" wrote in message
...
"codefy" wrote
Some American hero.

When Lindbergh died in Hawaii did he consider the people there with
any more maturity than when he made his racist comments or did he just
consider them his coolies ?

Lindbergh died in what 1973? There had been a lot of change in Americans
views
toward race by that time. I think above all Lindbergh was an American and
while he probably echoed the prevalent racial and isolationist views of
the
1920's and 1930's in his heyday, ultimately he would be swayed by
performance
and character.

Seems to me that the essence of a Great Man is to be able to see beyond
conventional wisdom and to examine persons and situations independently and
reach one's own conclusions and where possible, act on them. When it came to
race and to anti-Semitism, Mr. Lindbergh, although IIRC a minister's son,
seems not to have conducted such a self-examination. One wonders whether
Lindbergh ever was in touch with the so-called "average American" or whether
he could recognize and relate to views other than those fashionable in the
circles in which he habituated.

By the end of his life he could not have been ignorant of the
Tuskegee Airmen, Chappie James and Jesse Brown let alone Jackie Robinson.
I
can't prove it but I dare say he would have rather forgotten any racist
remarks
he might have made. Don't forget that after Pearl Harbor Lindbergh
volunteered
for active duty and was denied several times by Roosevelt who harbored a
grudge
over Lindbergh's comments on the superiority of the Luftwaffe in the late
1930's. A superiority that was as much Roosevelt's responsibility as it
was
Hitler's.

Actually, FDR desired to harness the charisma and persuasiveness which
Lindbergh possessed. Although FDR was certain, because of access to sources
of his own, independent of Lindbergh's, that Nazi Germany's aircraft
industry had not the prowess its propaganda claimed for it, and that the US
armaments industry, and especially the aircraft portion thereof, could be
resuscitated and could become strong enough in a rather short period of time
so as to be able to interpose effectively against any expansionist ambitions
held by the Axis, it is apparently not widely known that FDR, in the wake of
Lindbergh's German tour, offered the latter the position of US aircraft
acquisition czar, with wide delegation of authority in overseeing US R&D and
contracting; he wanted Lindbergh "on the team" instead of jeering from the
sidelines and counseling caution, if not defeatism. Lindbergh refused,
believing that FDR merely wanted to remove an irritating naysayer and
silence his independent voice of opposition.

Whereas FDR's attitude was "We'll show them!", Lindbergh's attitude
reflected a certain defeatism, "We'll never be able to match them, and let's
not waste our energies trying to" attitude, and he appeared to be ready to
accept a second-rate status for the US in world affairs, because intimidated
by a Nazi/Axis show of force.

As for his return to active duty, I submit that such a thing would have
opened a can of worms. Would Lindbergh have been able to submit to military
discipline? Would he have been able to contribute effectively in a system
where his word or opinion was not necessarily considered tantamount to
revelation?

It is well to remember that no nation, including the US, forced the Nazis to
re-arm in defiance of the WWI peace accords. FDR bore no responsibility for
the collapse of the world-wide economy, other than to try to bring the US
portion of it back to life.

Lindbergh's comments in those days were that the German's were so superior
to
us and we were so hopelessly outclassed we could not possibly affect the
outcome of a modern war in Europe so why bother. He was right of course
the US
Army was not even in the top ten in size in the world. Bulgaria had a
larger
standing army. A single Luftflotte in 1940 had more aircraft than the
entire US
Army Air Corps.

Again, a Great Man has to have matching vision. In this case, he seemed
determined to Think Small and seemed to lack an understanding of the latent
manufacturing potential of the US, which was still badly scarred by the
economic depression of the 1930's. As is well-known, once Gen Marshall's
system was in place, the US began producing trained divisions at such a pace
that, for example, WS Churchill initially could not comprehend how it was
being done. Lindbergh could not envision a dramatic increase in the number
of training a/c, pilots, transports, bombers, fighters, etc. which the US
proved to be capable of producing in relatively short order. Lindbergh also
appears to have missed out on the inter-allied information interchange which
kick-started US electronics and airframe development efforts.

Lindbergh was rightly called "Lucky Lindy" due to his successful solo
Atlantic crossing. However, the intense and universal celebrity (and wealth)
that became attached to him attendant thereto seems to have caused him, (as
well as many a person in other fields), to wrongly consider himself expert
at everything to which he turned his attention, and to believe that his
every opinion was sacrosanct. But Lindbergh was not a trained engineer, as
he demonstrated when the Nazis showed him around their alleged production
facilities, and was clueless in assessing the current and potential
industrial prowess of the US. Any of Gen Marshall's top staff could have
told him that the US would expand its army many-fold in a brief time, if
tasked to do so. Any of Adm Stark's top staff could have alerted him to the
swelling size and strength of the US Navy, similarly.


Lindbergh was guilty more of naivete' than Nazism. Lindbergh was taken in
many ways by such ruses as the only handful of a bomber type being flown
from
factory to factory and put back in the "production line" for him to
examine all
over again.

According to author "Ladislas Farago", intercepted German documents showed
that the Germans considered Lindbergh to be akin to one of their propaganda
agents who could be relied upon to cause their sentiments to become widely
heard in the US. They were especially impressed by Lindbergh's expressed
anti-Semitism.

SNIP

"Bill Silvey" wrote in message om...
"The Enlightenment" wrote in message

Also remember there was no 'holocaust' at this time and no 'holocaust
industry' to raise consiciouncess of it. That didn't really exist
till 1968. (I think a case can be made for arguing that without
full blown US and UK involvement there never would have been a
holocaust; the Nazis wanted to expell jews and break their social
power in media, banking, finance, proffesions and worked at
re-settling them in Palestine on the basis of the Balfur declaration
or resettling in Madagascar etc. Highly assimilated jews could
survive in the German military eg the first officer of the Bismark
was jewish)

This is either monumental ignorance or an apology for the some of the worst
monsters in history.

Try and take apart my points one by one.

"Gooneybird" wrote in message
...

"Bill Silvey" wrote in message
m...
"The Enlightenment" wrote in message

Also remember there was no 'holocaust' at this time and no 'holocaust
industry' to raise consiciouncess of it. That didn't really exist
till 1968. (I think a case can be made for arguing that without
full blown US and UK involvement there never would have been a
holocaust; the Nazis wanted to expell jews and break their social
power in media, banking, finance, proffesions and worked at
re-settling them in Palestine on the basis of the Balfur declaration
or resettling in Madagascar etc. Highly assimilated jews could
survive in the German military eg the first officer of the Bismark
was jewish)

This is either monumental ignorance or an apology for the some of the
worst
monsters in history.

Sounds to me like some Ozzie revisionist trying to deny that the Holocaust
happened.

I didn't say that, you did. Now why did you say that? Becuase you want to
attack me not my points and you do so by applying the ready made sticker of
holocuast denier and all that comes with it?

The tactic of a raving coward.

Holocuast Denier is the pejorative term for holocaust revisionist.
Incidently deathes in Ausschwitz have fallen from 4 million to a plausible
figure of between 500,000 - 800,000. That is official and the result of the
release of ex soviet archives. Still a very substantial number.

Now does that upset you?

Now I did not even dispute numbers, I merely pointed out that the Germans
tried expulsion first and why they tried it. I also pointed out that some
Jews served with the German armed forces throughout the war, sometimes at
high rank.

I did this to point out that from the point of view of americans in the 1939
there were no major attrocities for Ameicans or Charles Lindburgh to focus
on.

People did know that millions could die however if a full blown war occured.

Anyone old enough to remember seeing the newspaper pictures of
emaciated, stripe-clad corpses stacked up like cordwood taken at Dachau
with
American troops standing around holding their noses so they wouldn't have
to
smell the stench of death knows that it happened.

His comment about the Nazis
wanting to expel Jews is not only laughable as well as wildly untrue,

What percentage of German Jews escaped or were expelled? You will find
that the majority did.

Were there restellements in Palestine?

Were the Poles and Germans expelling each others jews to each other?

Did Poland invade czecholovakia just after Germany did?

It seems you are reacting emotionally.

but
reflect his anti-Semitic biases and prejudices.....he capitalizes "Nazis",
but
"jews" only rate a lower case.

Very trite


Just as a WAG, he's probably some pimply-faced
snotnose who wasn't even alive in those days, so how would he know about
anything like that? Probably read all about it in one of those
off-the-wall
comic books.

I'm not interested in your froting rabid name calling. It is clear however
that you are violently attached to a particular opinion, this is why you
are angry. The world is not as it should be. You view is not confirmed!


George Z.


Now read my points and if I made an incorrect statement then point it out.

I simply do not believe in the orthodoxy. WW2 could have been avoided and
less people would have died, including I think jews.

I will not conduct debate with you further.

(JDupre5762) wrote in
:

Why not? Thousands of Americans could have served and thousands
more could have been building the weapons and bases that were
going to be needed. They could have been working in the factories
and shipyards that would have had us better prepared for WW2.

Um, no. You're wrong.

Let's pretend that in 1935 Ford's Dearborn plant was assembling
tanks instead of Model A coupes. First of all, these will be
1930s era tanks, obsolete within five years. Second, where is
the money to pay for these tanks coming from? It's a depression,
and tax revenues are in the toilet. Furthermore, you've got to
pay for people to man these tanks, people to maintain them, shells
to arm them, and transporters to move them to the front, all at
wages below the prevailing minimum at the time.

But with the plant churning out those Model A coupes, you're
employing people at Ford, at Goodyear, at the subcontractors,
at the oil companies, all without a single dime spent by the
Federal government. Instead, these employees are making a
decent living, paying taxes and, when the time came, buying
bonds to support the building of a modern armed force.

War is a revenue sink, not a revenue source. As my EC101
prof liked to say, "War is ****ty economics".

Roosevelt got it spectacularly wrong.

Thank God. Had the US tried to build the so-called "Arsenal
of Democracy" before 1940, the USAAC would have entered the
war with 10,000 P-26 Peashooters.

Even the Italians with their CR.42s would have busted a gut
laughing.


Your fiend,

Ed

I don't want to take sides in the main issue being disputed here, but
merely point out that the following remark is mistaken :

Second, where is the money to pay for these tanks coming from? It's a depression,
and tax revenues are in the toilet.

Economists have understood since the mid-30s that the SOLUTION to
depression is for government expenditures to EXCEED tax revenues.

That creates employment, and thus income, and is the way out of the
depression.

Indeed, it was the spending on military build-up that brought the
economy out of the Great Depression of the 1930s.

(This is not to deny the role of other measures, such as monetary
policy, in combatting depression.)

vince norris