Lot of noise being made about Purple Hearts

On Wed, 11 Aug 2004 08:32:04 -0500, Charlie Wolf
wrote:


Hey Tom - you little hypocritical piece of horse****..

Did you feel the same way about Clinton? Or are you just a lying
piece of liberal scum?

I think - the latter.
Regards,

Clinton at least had the balls to say what he believed at the time.
He wasn't like the cowardly Bush and Cheney... acting like they
supported the war while dodging it themselves. I have more respect
for those that had the balls to walk their talk than for the
chickenhawks who squawked and balked.

To know the neocon chickenhawks......... watch what they do ..... not
what they say....... Jack




On Wed, 11 Aug 2004 01:39:37 GMT, (Tom Lacombe)
wrote:

On Wed, 11 Aug 2004 01:08:34 +0100,
wrote:

Because he would have had to go to war for his country, something he
and Cheney were unwilling to do, but they don't mind sending our kids
off to war. Peace!
http://www.vietnow.com/artbc.htm

From: Ed Rasimus

SNIP

It's easy to get them. You've got to be relatively incompetent at your
job. To get multiples indicates either incredible bravery (coupled
with incompetence) or a high level of accident-proneness.


Ed Rasimus


Come on, Ed, you know that's not true. I got my first purple heart for getting
burned while pulling somone out of a burning vehicle while under fire. That's
also where I got my bronze star. I got my second purple heart for getting shot
up while exiting a burning vehicle 2 weeks after the first one.

I was NOT incompetent nor accident prone.

How about the rescue teams that went in to get downed aircrews and came under
fire? Were the ones who got wounded or killed accident prone or incompetent?

If you were referring to fighter pilots say so, don't insult the kazillion of
us ground pounders who got them doing out jobs.

As an aside if the bad guys had dropped a rocket on your head while you were
asleep your next of kind would have been handed a puple heart. I wouldn't say
you were accident prone or incompetent in that example.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

Subject: Lot of noise being made about Purple Hearts
From: "Jay T. Beatty"
Date: 8/14/2004 9:33 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id: k.net


"Ed Rasimus" wrote in message
news
On Wed, 11 Aug 2004 01:08:34 +0100,
wrote:

It's easy to get them. You've got to be relatively incompetent at your
job. To get multiples indicates either incredible bravery (coupled
with incompetence) or a high level of accident-proneness.


Thats a bull**** statement, but since your an ex-fighter pilot, I can see
how you would think that.


Bull**** is right. Casualtis are largley the resilt of statistical happenstance
and chaos theory. Men are often killed by wild bursts of gunfire that has
nothing to do with competance. The idea that " I survived because I'm smart and
the other guy died because he is stupid" is the ultimate height of arrogance.
Go to my website and click on "One went down" to see a B-26 turned into a
flaming coffin with my friends inside. Were they incompetant? What
bulll****. What total bull****.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
Subject: Lot of noise being made about Purple Hearts
From: "Jay T. Beatty"
Date: 8/14/2004 9:33 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id: k.net


"Ed Rasimus" wrote in message
news
On Wed, 11 Aug 2004 01:08:34 +0100,
wrote:

It's easy to get them. You've got to be relatively incompetent at your
job. To get multiples indicates either incredible bravery (coupled
with incompetence) or a high level of accident-proneness.


Thats a bull**** statement, but since your an ex-fighter pilot, I can
see
how you would think that.


Bull**** is right. Casualtis are largley the resilt of statistical
happenstance
and chaos theory.

LOL! This crap is the product of the guy who has been telling us that all
that book larnin' ain't worth a plug nickel? "Statistical happinstance and
chaos theory"?! I guess the folks who write about statistics and those who
are developing chaos theory are believable, while those that have analyzed
combat operations are not...? One wonders if those *were* the primary
reasons, why then do the "new guys" experience a greater loss rate than the
expereinced hands? Especially in air combat?

Men are often killed by wild bursts of gunfire that has
nothing to do with competance. The idea that " I survived because I'm
smart and
the other guy died because he is stupid" is the ultimate height of
arrogance.

Substitute "competent and experienced" for "smart", and "often inexperienced
or incompetent" for "stupid" and you might be onto something there, Oh
Bookless Wonder.

Go to my website and click on "One went down" to see a B-26 turned into a
flaming coffin with my friends inside. Were they incompetant? What
bulll****. What total bull****.

Why should we go to your website and read your account? You have just been
telling us that written accounts are worthless, right?

Brooks



Arthur Kramer

ArtKramr wrote:

Casualtis are largley the resilt of statistical happenstance
and chaos theory.

Using that theory, there's no reason to train aircrew beyond the basics of
operating their machine. I mean, if its all "statisical happenstance" then it
really doesn't matter who's good and who's not.


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

"BUFDRVR" wrote in message
...
ArtKramr wrote:

Casualtis are largley the resilt of statistical happenstance
and chaos theory.

Using that theory, there's no reason to train aircrew beyond the basics of
operating their machine. I mean, if its all "statisical happenstance" then
it
really doesn't matter who's good and who's not.


This is where the disconnect comes in I suspect.

For aircrew of Art's period where flak was the biggest killer
and there was bugger all you could to do about it
statistical happenstance was a biggie. A lot of very
experienced and competent aircrews were lost
attacking the target. Once the bombardier took
over the aircraft had to fly straight and level until
the bombs were gone. During that period the
worst crew in the world and the best crew in the
world have the same chances and this is probably
the most heavily defended piece of sky they'll
cross on the mission. I,ve spoken to a few WW2
aircrews and this was the part of the mission they
hated.

For the RAF on night operations it was in some ways worse,
they had to wait for the phtoflash to go off and get a picture
of the aiming point for BDA. If you didnt bring back
that picture the trip didnt count as a combat mission
towards the total for your trip.

Keith

Subject: Lot of noise being made about Purple Hearts
From: "Keith Willshaw"

asualtis are largley the resilt of statistical happenstance
and chaos theory.

Using that theory, there's no reason to train aircrew beyond the basics of
operating their machine. I mean,

if its all "statisical happenstance" then
it
really doesn't matter who's good and who's not.


This is where the disconnect comes in I suspect.

For aircrew of Art's period where flak was the biggest killer
and there was bugger all you could to do about it
statistical happenstance was a biggie. A lot of very
experienced and competent aircrews were lost
attacking the target. Once the bombardier took
over the aircraft had to fly straight and level until
the bombs were gone. During that period the
worst crew in the world and the best crew in the
world have the same chances and this is probably
the most heavily defended piece of sky they'll
cross on the mission. I,ve spoken to a few WW2
aircrews and this was the part of the mission they
hated.

(snip good stuff)

Keith


Exactly right Keith. .How come you are so smart? (grin)



Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
Subject: Lot of noise being made about Purple Hearts
From: "Keith Willshaw"




Exactly right Keith. .How come you are so smart? (grin)


I'm not but the Lancaster tailgunner who told me this
survived 2 tours and he reckoned that was a
statistical fluke akin to winning the lottery

Keith

Subject: Lot of noise being made about Purple Hearts
From: (BUFDRVR)
Date: 8/14/2004 3:25 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

ArtKramr wrote:

Casualtis are largley the resilt of statistical happenstance
and chaos theory.

Using that theory, there's no reason to train aircrew beyond the basics of
operating their machine. I mean, if its all "statisical happenstance" then it
really doesn't matter who's good and who's not.


BUFDRVR


UYou are overlooking one point. The need to hit the target and that takes
training skill and experience. At least it did in my war. Your mileage may
vary.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

ArtKramr wrote:

You are overlooking one point. The need to hit the target and that takes
training skill and experience.

Which has exactly zero to do with survival...at least on that mission.

At least it did in my war. Your mileage may
vary.

Dropping unguided weapons accurately still requires a good OSO or RN.


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"