Too many accidents

So how does one demonstrate or practice a spin or incipient spin without "misusing" the rudder?

[Puchaz excepted]

On Monday, September 10, 2018 at 3:57:28 PM UTC-4, George Haeh wrote:
So how does one demonstrate or practice a spin or incipient spin without "misusing" the rudder?

[Puchaz excepted]

Put the CG behind the aft limit and a gust that hits the two wing tips differently can be enough to cause an asymetrical departure.
UH

On Monday, September 10, 2018 at 3:57:28 PM UTC-4, George Haeh wrote:
So how does one demonstrate or practice a spin or incipient spin without "misusing" the rudder?

[Puchaz excepted]

I just read the USAF TP School report on the ASK-21/TG-9. They found cases where at the stall, aileron adverse jaw from an attempt to pick up a wing drop was enough to cause the departure (P. 88 "No Rudder Spin Entry" paragraph). Interesting read... Downloaded from DTIC (AD-A213513 July 1989). dtic..mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a213513.pdf

Dan

George Haeh wrote on 9/10/2018 12:57 PM:
So how does one demonstrate or practice a spin or incipient spin without "misusing" the rudder?

[Puchaz excepted]

In my ASW 20C and ASH 26 E, I could easily get a wing drop from coordinated
flight. I never let either enter a full spin, but always recovered at less than a
quarter turn. Easy to do: I circle at about 20 degree bank while continuously
slowing down, always maintaining coordinated flight; at some point as I slow, the
inner wing will drop and can not be picked up with the ailerons. So, spin entry
with no rudder misuse, just flying too slowly in a turn.

The above is harder to do at 30 degree bank, and I couldn't get it too happen at
40-45 degree bank. I did not experiment with different CG positions - mine was a
bit towards the aft side, but not near the rear limit.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1
- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Dec 2014a" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm

http://soaringsafety.org/prevention/...anes-2014A.pdf

On Tuesday, September 11, 2018 at 12:26:48 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
George Haeh wrote on 9/10/2018 12:57 PM:
So how does one demonstrate or practice a spin or incipient spin without "misusing" the rudder?

[Puchaz excepted]

In my ASW 20C and ASH 26 E, I could easily get a wing drop from coordinated
flight. I never let either enter a full spin, but always recovered at less than a
quarter turn. Easy to do: I circle at about 20 degree bank while continuously
slowing down, always maintaining coordinated flight; at some point as I slow, the
inner wing will drop and can not be picked up with the ailerons. So, spin entry
with no rudder misuse, just flying too slowly in a turn.

The above is harder to do at 30 degree bank, and I couldn't get it too happen at
40-45 degree bank. I did not experiment with different CG positions - mine was a
bit towards the aft side, but not near the rear limit.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1
- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Dec 2014a" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm

http://soaringsafety.org/prevention/...anes-2014A.pdf

It is worth remembering that the inside wing in a turn is flying at a higher angle of attack than the outer wing. They are both descending at the same rate, but the inner wing is slower due to flying a shorter path. Add in the expectation that there is probably a small amount of top aileron to counteract the over banking tendency,and one can see why the inner wing will stall first and an incipient spin can result.
UH

On Monday, September 10, 2018 at 9:26:48 PM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
George Haeh wrote on 9/10/2018 12:57 PM:
So how does one demonstrate or practice a spin or incipient spin without "misusing" the rudder?

[Puchaz excepted]

In my ASW 20C and ASH 26 E, I could easily get a wing drop from coordinated
flight. I never let either enter a full spin, but always recovered at less than a
quarter turn. Easy to do: I circle at about 20 degree bank while continuously
slowing down, always maintaining coordinated flight; at some point as I slow, the
inner wing will drop and can not be picked up with the ailerons. So, spin entry
with no rudder misuse, just flying too slowly in a turn.

The above is harder to do at 30 degree bank, and I couldn't get it too happen at
40-45 degree bank. I did not experiment with different CG positions - mine was a
bit towards the aft side, but not near the rear limit.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1
- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Dec 2014a" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm

http://soaringsafety.org/prevention/...anes-2014A.pdf

Thanks Eric and Hank for this. I recently viewed on YouTube a good video of a K-23 doing spins from coordinated flight. I had a Nimbus 4T start a spin in coordinated thermaling flight. Quick to put stick against forward stop and rudder opposite to rotation was flying in quarter turn and not sure how much altitude loss, but would be surprised if it was more than 75 feet.