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#11
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Don Johnstone wrote:
I stand corrected. My original query still stands. Where cameras and smoky barographs were used I can see the sense of a 'declaration'. With GPS do we really need it, surely the criteria should be the distance flown and this can now be positively verified with a data logger. Why complicate something so simple? A 300k or 500k downwind dash ie free distance is ok so why not a triangle It's not a matter of technology, but philosophy. Cameras or GPS recorder, you can still make a witnessed takeoff and fly an undeclared flight. The declared flight definitely predates cameras! I don't know the history well, but certainly it is a more difficult task to achieve, and this gives it more value to many of us. Lately, undeclared tasks have been added, at least for records, so perhaps the philosophy is changing. -- ----- change "netto" to "net" to email me directly Eric Greenwell Washington State USA |
#12
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On 5 Mar 2004 11:12:19 GMT, Don Johnstone
wrote: At 17:06 04 March 2004, Ian Strachan wrote: snip- A proposal that badge distances should be allowed for free flights as well as pre-declared, was defeated. Quite right too. Free flights should not count for badges because an important part of the badge requirement is to pre-plan a flight that can be done in the prevailing weather conditions. That's why (in the UK at least) suitable competition tasks cannot be used to claim badge flights: you haven't planned the task, only flown it. Which is hard to understand. Anyone with a programmable logger can get airbourne and then declare a flight by entering the details in the logger, and claim a badge flight. As others have pointed out, this is plain wrong. -- martin@ : Martin Gregorie gregorie : Harlow, UK demon : co : Zappa fan & glider pilot uk : |
#13
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"Martin Gregorie" wrote in message ... On 5 Mar 2004 11:12:19 GMT, Don Johnstone wrote: At 17:06 04 March 2004, Ian Strachan wrote: snip- A proposal that badge distances should be allowed for free flights as well as pre-declared, was defeated. Quite right too. Free flights should not count for badges because an important part of the badge requirement is to pre-plan a flight that can be done in the prevailing weather conditions. That's why (in the UK at least) suitable competition tasks cannot be used to claim badge flights: you haven't planned the task, only flown it. Way this always a rule? I know of one UK competition where 25 Diamond distance flights were completed. Perhaps only a goal leg is not claimable, but may distance, altitude, and duration are? Frank Whiteley |
#14
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X-no-archive: yes
In article , F.L. Whiteley writes "Martin Gregorie" wrote in message .. . On 5 Mar 2004 11:12:19 GMT, Don Johnstone wrote: At 17:06 04 March 2004, Ian Strachan wrote: snip- A proposal that badge distances should be allowed for free flights as well as pre-declared, was defeated. Quite right too. Free flights should not count for badges because an important part of the badge requirement is to pre-plan a flight that can be done in the prevailing weather conditions. That's why (in the UK at least) suitable competition tasks cannot be used to claim badge flights: you haven't planned the task, only flown it. Way this always a rule? I know of one UK competition where 25 Diamond distance flights were completed. Perhaps only a goal leg is not claimable, but may distance, altitude, and duration are? Frank Whiteley If the task set is a qualifying badge task, it is taken as read that by taking part in the competition that day a declaration has been made and no separate declaration is required. Tim Newport-Peace "Indecision is the Key to Flexibility." |
#15
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On Fri, 5 Mar 2004 14:12:51 -0700, "F.L. Whiteley"
wrote: "Martin Gregorie" wrote in message .. . On 5 Mar 2004 11:12:19 GMT, Don Johnstone wrote: At 17:06 04 March 2004, Ian Strachan wrote: snip- A proposal that badge distances should be allowed for free flights as well as pre-declared, was defeated. Quite right too. Free flights should not count for badges because an important part of the badge requirement is to pre-plan a flight that can be done in the prevailing weather conditions. That's why (in the UK at least) suitable competition tasks cannot be used to claim badge flights: you haven't planned the task, only flown it. Way this always a rule? I know of one UK competition where 25 Diamond distance flights were completed. Perhaps only a goal leg is not claimable, but may distance, altitude, and duration are? In my previous post I repeated what I was told when last year I asked if a 300 km Regionals task could be claimed as Gold distance. The explanation I repeated as to why it couldn't was given to me at the time. Now I've just skim read the FAI OO guide and it mentions no such limitation, so on the face of it I can't see why a competition task shouldn't be claimed as a badge flight. However, I'd also say that the logistics of making a properly witnessed claim during the task could be quite a problem. You'd have to get your declaration made between briefing and launching the grid, find an OO to supervise removing the logger after you land and then sort out any conflicts between the OO and the task scorer regarding logger custody and downloading - and do all this in the general turmoil of a competition day without annoying the folks in competition control. -- martin@ : Martin Gregorie gregorie : Harlow, UK demon : co : Zappa fan & glider pilot uk : |
#16
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X-no-archive: yes
In article , Martin Gregorie writes On Fri, 5 Mar 2004 14:12:51 -0700, "F.L. Whiteley" wrote: "Martin Gregorie" wrote in message . .. On 5 Mar 2004 11:12:19 GMT, Don Johnstone wrote: At 17:06 04 March 2004, Ian Strachan wrote: snip- A proposal that badge distances should be allowed for free flights as well as pre-declared, was defeated. Quite right too. Free flights should not count for badges because an important part of the badge requirement is to pre-plan a flight that can be done in the prevailing weather conditions. That's why (in the UK at least) suitable competition tasks cannot be used to claim badge flights: you haven't planned the task, only flown it. Way this always a rule? I know of one UK competition where 25 Diamond distance flights were completed. Perhaps only a goal leg is not claimable, but may distance, altitude, and duration are? In my previous post I repeated what I was told when last year I asked if a 300 km Regionals task could be claimed as Gold distance. The explanation I repeated as to why it couldn't was given to me at the time. Now I've just skim read the FAI OO guide and it mentions no such limitation, so on the face of it I can't see why a competition task shouldn't be claimed as a badge flight. However, I'd also say that the logistics of making a properly witnessed claim during the task could be quite a problem. You'd have to get your declaration made between briefing and launching the grid, I don't see that. I have always taken the view that by virtue of taking part in the competition that day, you have declared the task as set by the organisers. That's common sense, isn't it? find an OO to supervise removing the logger after you land and then sort out any conflicts between the OO and the task scorer regarding logger custody and downloading - and do all this in the general turmoil of a competition day without annoying the folks in competition control. Having an OO remove the Flight Recorder from the Aircraft is only necessary IF the approval document for that Flight Recorder requires it. Certainly, under Lasham's Local rules and maybe other clubs, Competition Officials are Officials Observers for the Duration of the Contest. It is however important to remember that the 'observation' zones for Competitions and Badges are slightly different, and if you intend to claim a badge you need to go a bit further into the zone. Tim Newport-Peace "Indecision is the Key to Flexibility." |
#17
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As Tim has already noted, the publication of a competition
task counts as a declaration. The only proviso to this is that the turning points have to be rounded, you need to enter the defined sector, going into the TP beer barrel is not enuff. When setting tasks which qualify as badge flights I always stress this point so that those who wish to claim a badge go that little bit further. It is the failure to go into the TP sector which is probably the reason some claims are rejected, not that there is a rule against it. As regards free distance flights not counting as badge flights, consider the silver distance flight. At 22:30 06 March 2004, Martin Gregorie wrote: On Fri, 5 Mar 2004 14:12:51 -0700, 'F.L. Whiteley' wrote: 'Martin Gregorie' wrote in message . .. On 5 Mar 2004 11:12:19 GMT, Don Johnstone wrote: At 17:06 04 March 2004, Ian Strachan wrote: snip- A proposal that badge distances should be allowed for free flights as well as pre-declared, was defeated. Quite right too. Free flights should not count for badges because an important part of the badge requirement is to pre-plan a flight that can be done in the prevailing weather conditions. That's why (in the UK at least) suitable competition tasks cannot be used to claim badge flights: you haven't planned the task, only flown it. Way this always a rule? I know of one UK competition where 25 Diamond distance flights were completed. Perhaps only a goal leg is not claimable, but may distance, altitude, and duration are? In my previous post I repeated what I was told when last year I asked if a 300 km Regionals task could be claimed as Gold distance. The explanation I repeated as to why it couldn't was given to me at the time. Now I've just skim read the FAI OO guide and it mentions no such limitation, so on the face of it I can't see why a competition task shouldn't be claimed as a badge flight. However, I'd also say that the logistics of making a properly witnessed claim during the task could be quite a problem. You'd have to get your declaration made between briefing and launching the grid, find an OO to supervise removing the logger after you land and then sort out any conflicts between the OO and the task scorer regarding logger custody and downloading - and do all this in the general turmoil of a competition day without annoying the folks in competition control. -- martin@ : Martin Gregorie gregorie : Harlow, UK demon : co : Zappa fan & glider pilot uk : |
#18
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Why not simply write down the turnpoint coordinates, off
by one in the "seconds," and get that signed as a declaration? Then it isn't the competition task, but one flown concurrently. And obviously it requires different planning, right (since it IS a different course)? Reducio ad absurdum... -- ------------+ Mark Boyd Avenal, California, USA |
#19
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In article ,
Don Johnstone wrote: I stand corrected. My original query still stands. Where cameras and smoky barographs were used I can see the sense of a 'declaration'. With GPS do we really need it, surely the criteria should be the distance flown and this can now be positively verified with a data logger. Why complicate something so simple? A 300k or 500k downwind dash ie free distance is ok so why not a triangle A couple of points, and if anyone thinks any of these are wrong, please correct me: 1. If a qualifying task is completed which is a subset of the declared task, this is fine: EXAMPLE: A B D C E If A-B-E-C-D-A is declared, A-B-C-D-A is flown, and A-B-C-A qualifies as a 300km triangle, then (assuming the OZ and altitude rules are met), this is considered a "declared and completed 300km triangle." Congratulations! 2. There is no limit on the number of turnpoints one may declare for a flight. 3. Turnpoints may be repeated in a delaration. So, for example, A-B-C-D-E-A-B-C-E-D-A-B-D-C-E-A-B-D-E-C-A-B-E-C-D-A-B-E-D-C- A-C-B-D-E-A-C-B-E-D-A-C-D-B-E-A-C-D-E-B-A-C-E-B-D-A-C-E-D-B- A-D-B-C-E-A-D-B-E-C-A-D-C-B-E-A-D-C-E-B-A-D-E-B-C-A-D-E-C-B- A-E-B-C-D-A-E-B-D-C-A-E-C-B-D-A-E-C-D-B-A-E-D-C-B-A-E-D-B-C is a perfectly valid task declaration. It's also quite useful, because if one declares this before the flight, one can fly the turnpoints in any order and after the flight, that subset achieved is considered a completed, declared task. And any subset of those points which qualifies for a badge is also completed and qualifying. So if one has a clever computer program to print out all the turnpoint permutations, and enough printer paper, and a friendly OO, one can simply fly any turnpoints in whatever order and come back and land and then figure out what the flight qualifies for. All quite proper. Reducio ad absurdum... The IGC should have approved the idea of post-flight declared turnpoints for badge tasks. It saves paper... -- ------------+ Mark Boyd Avenal, California, USA |
#20
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X-no-archive: yes
In article 404cf98a$1@darkstar, Mark James Boyd writes A couple of points, and if anyone thinks any of these are wrong, please correct me: 1. If a qualifying task is completed which is a subset of the declared task, this is fine: EXAMPLE: A B D C E If A-B-E-C-D-A is declared, A-B-C-D-A is flown, and A-B-C-A qualifies as a 300km triangle, then (assuming the OZ and altitude rules are met), this is considered a "declared and completed 300km triangle." Congratulations! 2. There is no limit on the number of turnpoints one may declare for a flight. 3. Turnpoints may be repeated in a delaration. For badges a maximum of 3 waypoints may be claimed and each Waypoint may only be claimed once. (SC3, 1.4.5(b). The sequence must be on the declaration. Tim Newport-Peace "Indecision is the Key to Flexibility." |
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