New Aviation Terminology

"Teacherjh" wrote in message
...

You don't await IFR clearance sitting on the runway. I don't care what
kind of
airplane you are, or why you diverted. When waiting for an IFR clearance,
you
stay off the runway.


At a controlled field you wait where ATC tells you to wait.

At a controlled field you wait where ATC tells you to wait.

I suppose, but what right-minded controller would plant a 737 on a runway to
wait for an IFR clearance? In my mind, an ex-controller, or a =very= unusual
circumstance.

Jose

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On 26 Nov 2003 05:48:24 GMT, (Teacherjh)
wrote:

At a controlled field you wait where ATC tells you to wait.

I suppose, but what right-minded controller would plant a 737 on a runway to
wait for an IFR clearance? In my mind, an ex-controller, or a =very= unusual
circumstance.

I dunno. A jetport in the Azores probably *is* an unusual place. I
wonder what the daily traffic volume is.

Don

"Don Tuite" wrote in message
...
I dunno. A jetport in the Azores probably *is* an unusual place. I
wonder what the daily traffic volume is.

To go back to the original crash - at the time the airport was littered with
large airliners because the weather in Europe was horrible and they'd all
landed there to wait it out. So they were back-taxing aircraft on the active
runway because the taxi-ways were full.

It was an unusual day at that airport, it became infamous!

Mat

--
Matthew Waugh
Comm. SEL MEL, CFI-AI
http://home.nc.rr.com/mwaugh/learn2fly/index.htm

"John Harper" wrote in message
news:1069786900.839440@sj-nntpcache-3...

Actually there are some changes as a result of Tenerife. For
example in the UK the word "cleared" is used only in "cleared
for takeoff". Other uses (e.g. for taxi) use some other word,
"permission" iirc.

That's not quite the case, though you're on the right lines. In the UK (and
in other states that adhere to ICAO phraseology) the words *"take-off"* are
only used as part of a clearance to take off. Prior to that the word
"departure" is used:

ATC: "G-ABCD after departure turn left heading ya de ya de ya... " (might
include an IFR clearance)
Aircraft:"After departure turn left heading ya de ya de ya... G-ABCD"
....
Aircraft: "G-ABCD ready for departure"
ATC: "G-ABCD cleared for take-off"
Aircraft: "Cleared for take-off, G-ABCD"

You're correct that there's no "clearance" to taxi but I think that's the
same everywhere.

So there's no problem with reading an IFR clearance, since there's no taboo
on "clearance" or "cleared".

The issue identified at Tenerife was, to borrow Ron's transcript, not the
CLEARED, but the TAKE-OFF

KLM: KLM 4805 is now ready for takeoff, and we're waiting for our ATC
clearance.
TWR: KLM 8705 you are cleared to the papa beacon climb to and maintain
flight level 290 right turn after TAKE-OFF proceed with heading 040
until
intercepting the 305 radial from Las Palmas VOR.
KLM: Roger sir, we're cleared to the Papa Beacon flight level 90, right
turn out
050 until intercepting the 305 and we're now at TAKE-OFF .
TWR: OK. Stand by for take-off, I will call you.
PAN: We're still taxiing down the runway, Clipper 1736

As well as the potential confusion over the tower's use of "take-off" in the
clearance (which was at the time perfectly acceptable practice, BTW), the
second use of the words by the crew would or should ring alarm bells in a UK
ATCO's mind as to whether the aircraft had properly understood that they
were to hold. Evidently if raised some doubt in the tower controller's
mind, but not enough for him to demand an acknowledgement.

Julian Scarfe

Matthew Waugh wrote:
"Don Tuite" wrote in message
...

I dunno. A jetport in the Azores probably *is* an unusual place. I
wonder what the daily traffic volume is.


To go back to the original crash - at the time the airport was littered with
large airliners because the weather in Europe was horrible and they'd all
landed there to wait it out. So they were back-taxing aircraft on the active
runway because the taxi-ways were full.

It was an unusual day at that airport, it became infamous!

Don't know about the weather in Europe, but it was certainly bad in the
Canaries with fog and low-lying clouds creating very poor visibility. The
intended airport in the islands for both flights was at Las Palmas, but
that airport had closed due to a bomb explosion at the terminal and claims
of a second bomb. As a result the involved planes and others were diverted
to Tenerife resulting in very crowded conditions at the airport there -
and, as stated, using the active runway for back-taxiing. The accident
occurred after Las Palmas reopened and the planes diverted to Tenerife were
being sent back there. Definitely an unusual day.

"Teacherjh" wrote in message
...

I suppose, but what right-minded controller would plant a 737 on a runway
to
wait for an IFR clearance? In my mind, an ex-controller, or a =very=
unusual
circumstance.


It was a 747. The controller didn't plant him on the runway so that he
could wait for an IFR clearance, he was taxiing for takeoff while the
clearance was on request. Nor did he wait on the runway for his IFR
clearance, he was issued the IFR clearance and still had to wait for the
runway to become available for his takeoff.

Nor did he wait on the runway for his IFR
clearance, he was issued the IFR clearance and still had to wait for the
runway to become available for his takeoff.


Ok, I thought he got his IFR clearance while in position... implying he was on
the runway without an IFR clearance at least for some point.

Jos

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"Teacherjh" wrote in message
...

Ok, I thought he got his IFR clearance while in position... implying he
was on
the runway without an IFR clearance at least for some point.


He did get his IFR clearance while on the runway, but that did not delay his
departure. Being on the runway without an IFR clearance is not a problem.

Being on the runway without an IFR clearance is not a problem.

.... unless you can't take off without an IFR clearance, and there's incoming.
But I suppose the controller would take care of that when it happened.

It just seems that the end of the runway is a bad place to be unless you're
ready to go.

Jose

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