Engine over TBO at purchase

Hi group.
I am interested in buying a Sundowner with 2035 TT E&A.
The owner (actually the broker) offered to allow $5K off the asking price to
have the engine O/H'd.
I am a student pilot and very much want this particular airplane, but I
don't think that $5K off a $14K O/H is reasonable.
The avionics are ok, but could be improved on. My biggest concern at this
point is the engine time.
Any opinions on what is fair to me and the seller concerning allowances for
the engine O/H?
Thanks in advance.

Gary
Future pilot without a plane

I'd be suspicious of the engine not being overhauled already. He
probably just doesn't have the cash, but it's possible that the seller
found a problem so significant that he could recoup the cost of the
repair in the sale, and is trying to "dump" the plane unrepaired.

I'd consider offering the fair value of the plane minus the cost of
replacing the engine with a brand new one, or maybe contingent on
getting the overhaul. If the seller didn't like those ideas, I
wouldn't worry that I missed out on a great plane.

In article ,
"DHead" wrote:

Hi group.
I am interested in buying a Sundowner with 2035 TT E&A.
The owner (actually the broker) offered to allow $5K off the asking price to
have the engine O/H'd.
I am a student pilot and very much want this particular airplane, but I
don't think that $5K off a $14K O/H is reasonable.
The avionics are ok, but could be improved on. My biggest concern at this
point is the engine time.
Any opinions on what is fair to me and the seller concerning allowances for
the engine O/H?

what is the asking price? what would be the asking price of the aircraft with
a good overhaul?

In general, it is always cheaper for the buyer to have the previous owner
pay for things because a seller never seems to be able to recover 100%
cost of repairs/improvements. However, be cautious of a cheapo
overhaul.

I'd recommend caution about buying an aircraft with a runout engine.
Overhauling an engine can be a great learning experience, and can
also be a lot of work, with lots of traps for the unwary.

good luck

--
Bob Noel
no one likes an educated mule

DHead wrote:

Any opinions on what is fair to me and the seller concerning allowances for
the engine O/H?

Whats the oil consumption and compression readings, does the
engine/plane still perform like the manual says, whats the history of
the engine, ie. has it been topped? Making TBO and beyond may mean a
well cared for engine that can continue to operate for many years to
come without an OH...

Darrel Toepfer wrote:
DHead wrote:
Any opinions on what is fair to me and the seller concerning
allowances for the engine O/H?

Whats the oil consumption and compression readings, does the
engine/plane still perform like the manual says, whats the history of
the engine, ie. has it been topped? Making TBO and beyond may mean a
well cared for engine that can continue to operate for many years to
come without an OH...

Also, take the $5k and put it into a OH account, save away additional
funds for each hour flown... You just might make it though training with
doing nothing but oil changes and keeping the tanks filled. Sell the
plane and move on when done...

I would walk away.

There are thousands of planes for sale with plenty good lower time engines.


"DHead" wrote in message
...
Hi group.
I am interested in buying a Sundowner with 2035 TT E&A.
The owner (actually the broker) offered to allow $5K off the asking price
to have the engine O/H'd.
I am a student pilot and very much want this particular airplane, but I
don't think that $5K off a $14K O/H is reasonable.
The avionics are ok, but could be improved on. My biggest concern at this
point is the engine time.
Any opinions on what is fair to me and the seller concerning allowances
for the engine O/H?
Thanks in advance.

Gary
Future pilot without a plane

On Sat, 30 Jul 2005 12:10:57 +0000, John Doe wrote:

I would walk away.

Well, I wouldn't necessarily. It depends.

I bought my current plane with a runout engine at an appropriately
discounted price. I then had the overhaul done the way I wanted it, by
the shop I wanted to do it. I was planning to keep the aircraft a long
time, so the quality of the work was important to me.

I looked at a lot of planes out there with cheap overhauls done for the
purpose of sale. Some were already leaking oil at 100 SMOH.

As to the $5K - that's kind of meaningless. I'd figure $20K to do
a quality overhaul of everything forward of the firewall. Determine what
the plane would be worth - accounting for the condition of airframe and
radios - with a fresh overhaul, subtract $20K, and that's what this one is
worth.

On Fri, 29 Jul 2005 22:35:58 -0700, DHead wrote:

I am interested in buying a Sundowner with 2035 TT E&A.

Hi Gary,

I bought my 1976 Sundowner with 1940 TT on air and engine 4 years ago.
What I learned.....

Don't depend solely on compressions for evaluating a engine. I bought mine
that had 76 to 78 on each cylinder. Thought that was great until an
exhaust valve disintegrated in flight. So, keep in mind, there is a bottom
half of the engine to consider.

What you describe is a very underused plane. I learned this is just as
bad, if not worse then buying an overused plane. You may ask why? Things
corrode, grease settles and all sorts of nasty things happen to metal AND
WIRES when it sits unattended for long periods of times.

I bought mine for 38K. The owner originally asked for 44K, but I said no,
too high based on high time engine. He came back about 1 month later and
dropped it to 38K which I thought was fair enough. Bought the plane.

Flew it for 50 hours and then the exhaust valve on the number 4 cylinder
bit the dust. Got the cylinder replaced, and then another cylinder started
acting up (luckily on the ground). I could not get it to pass the mag
check, taxied back to the ramp, asked my A&P to yank the engine and
overhaul it. 13.5K and a month later, I was a proud owner of a newly
overhauled plane.

Avionics. Mine was IFR capable, but was not current on the .411 and .413
transponder pitot static system check. You indicated you are a student, so
this may not be important now, but it is nice to have it current. I had
just got my VFR ticket and was going to transition to my IFR rating, so I
figured, I would be saving a lot of money flying in my plane. (I probably
saved about 5K in training expenses, so that paid for the remainder of the
overhaul is the way I look at it. My radios are old and tired. I learned
from my last pitot static check, the filters are going bad, and will need
to be replaced. Because of the age of the radio, I was told, it probably
will be time to look at new avionics.

Sitting on the ramp is the worst thing one can do for the gauges.
Lubrication settles, gauges get sticky and so on. So, evaluate how much
was the plane used recently?

I am now at a point, where I have every switch, button and knob working.
(knock on wood!). It took me 3 years to get to this point, and it is
expensive. A stupid power supply to strobe light cost $240 dollars.

Not sure what you currently fly, but a Sundowner for creature comfort is by
far better then a piper or a Cessna 172 or lower. Tons of room. Plan for
110 knots in your flight planning at 2300 rpm. I burn about 9.5 to 10 gph.

In the three years I have owned my plane, I have flown at least once a
week, so whoever gets my plane will have gotten a plane with some serious
TLC.

Note, a Sundowner is very difficult to learn to land. It is very nose
heavy and you must fly it all the way down to the ground. You must stick
to the POH numbers or you will float kingdomkong or drop like a brick. If
you hold the speed to the numbers you will grease every landing. The elbow
gear does amazing things for landings.

The plane is built like a tank and flies like one, so don't expect to be a
speed demon after wheels are up. The known porposing problems are true, as
I have been there and done it. If you bounce on landing, don't salvage it,
go around.

Hope this helps!

Allen

Do a compression check, cut open the oil filter and send in an oil
analysis. PLENTY of engines go well past TBO. If the plane is priced
right (that is the engine is already fully depreciated), the engine
time past TBO is free. If an engine is not using oil, does not leak
substantial oil, and makes good compressions, chances are it has at
least 500 more hours in it.

When I saw what the OP wanted I thought "Allen Lieberman need to chime
in here" and here you are... Great post and one of the reasons I love
these newsgroups. No matter what you question someone has already "been
there and done that' and usually has the T-shirt!! :-)

I, myself, am just waiting on the post that fills me in on how I can
make airplane ownership reasonably inexpensive. Let me know if anyone
sees that one. ;-)

Jon Kraus
'79 Mooney 201

A Lieberman wrote:
On Fri, 29 Jul 2005 22:35:58 -0700, DHead wrote:


I am interested in buying a Sundowner with 2035 TT E&A.


Hi Gary,

I bought my 1976 Sundowner with 1940 TT on air and engine 4 years ago.
What I learned.....

Don't depend solely on compressions for evaluating a engine. I bought mine
that had 76 to 78 on each cylinder. Thought that was great until an
exhaust valve disintegrated in flight. So, keep in mind, there is a bottom
half of the engine to consider.

What you describe is a very underused plane. I learned this is just as
bad, if not worse then buying an overused plane. You may ask why? Things
corrode, grease settles and all sorts of nasty things happen to metal AND
WIRES when it sits unattended for long periods of times.

I bought mine for 38K. The owner originally asked for 44K, but I said no,
too high based on high time engine. He came back about 1 month later and
dropped it to 38K which I thought was fair enough. Bought the plane.

Flew it for 50 hours and then the exhaust valve on the number 4 cylinder
bit the dust. Got the cylinder replaced, and then another cylinder started
acting up (luckily on the ground). I could not get it to pass the mag
check, taxied back to the ramp, asked my A&P to yank the engine and
overhaul it. 13.5K and a month later, I was a proud owner of a newly
overhauled plane.

Avionics. Mine was IFR capable, but was not current on the .411 and .413
transponder pitot static system check. You indicated you are a student, so
this may not be important now, but it is nice to have it current. I had
just got my VFR ticket and was going to transition to my IFR rating, so I
figured, I would be saving a lot of money flying in my plane. (I probably
saved about 5K in training expenses, so that paid for the remainder of the
overhaul is the way I look at it. My radios are old and tired. I learned
from my last pitot static check, the filters are going bad, and will need
to be replaced. Because of the age of the radio, I was told, it probably
will be time to look at new avionics.

Sitting on the ramp is the worst thing one can do for the gauges.
Lubrication settles, gauges get sticky and so on. So, evaluate how much
was the plane used recently?

I am now at a point, where I have every switch, button and knob working.
(knock on wood!). It took me 3 years to get to this point, and it is
expensive. A stupid power supply to strobe light cost $240 dollars.

Not sure what you currently fly, but a Sundowner for creature comfort is by
far better then a piper or a Cessna 172 or lower. Tons of room. Plan for
110 knots in your flight planning at 2300 rpm. I burn about 9.5 to 10 gph.

In the three years I have owned my plane, I have flown at least once a
week, so whoever gets my plane will have gotten a plane with some serious
TLC.

Note, a Sundowner is very difficult to learn to land. It is very nose
heavy and you must fly it all the way down to the ground. You must stick
to the POH numbers or you will float kingdomkong or drop like a brick. If
you hold the speed to the numbers you will grease every landing. The elbow
gear does amazing things for landings.

The plane is built like a tank and flies like one, so don't expect to be a
speed demon after wheels are up. The known porposing problems are true, as
I have been there and done it. If you bounce on landing, don't salvage it,
go around.

Hope this helps!

Allen