End of Season Sunset Warning for SSA-OLC Participants

Doug Haluza wrote:
The predicted sunset time is the only thing relevant for flight
planning.

It is interesting that part 61 and part 91 define regulations that
refer to sunrise and sunset but that the FAA provides no definition of
what those terms mean. At least I couldn't find those definitions. I
expected to find them in part 1.

I used to fly a lot in an Aerona Chief that did not meet night lighting
requirements. A sunrise/sunset time table was always available for
flight planning, but I don't know if it agreed with whatever time table
FAA was using. I once landed a minute before sunset (according to my
table) after an xc flight and was still in motion on the airport after
sunset. Neither tower nor ground control expressed any concern.

I know I can call flight service and ask for sunset time for my local
airport. Their reply is "I can give you sunset for Phoenix, is that
close enough?" If I say yes, does that become the offical sunset time
for my local airport?

Given the uncertainty of the actual official sunset time I repeat my
request that SAA's sunset time be used only to determine the "end of
soaring flight" and not used to determine the validity of the entire
flight.

Andy

Andy wrote:

Given the uncertainty of the actual official sunset time I repeat my
request that SAA's sunset time be used only to determine the "end of
soaring flight" and not used to determine the validity of the entire
flight.

I like that suggestion. What about it Doug?


Jack

Hi Andy,

"Andy" wrote in message
oups.com...
Doug Haluza wrote:
The predicted sunset time is the only thing relevant for flight
planning.

It is interesting that part 61 and part 91 define regulations that
refer to sunrise and sunset but that the FAA provides no definition of
what those terms mean. At least I couldn't find those definitions. I
expected to find them in part 1.

I used to fly a lot in an Aerona Chief that did not meet night lighting
requirements. A sunrise/sunset time table was always available for
flight planning, but I don't know if it agreed with whatever time table
FAA was using. I once landed a minute before sunset (according to my
table) after an xc flight and was still in motion on the airport after
sunset. Neither tower nor ground control expressed any concern.

I know I can call flight service and ask for sunset time for my local
airport. Their reply is "I can give you sunset for Phoenix, is that
close enough?" If I say yes, does that become the offical sunset time
for my local airport?

Given the uncertainty of the actual official sunset time I repeat my
request that SAA's sunset time be used only to determine the "end of
soaring flight" and not used to determine the validity of the entire
flight.

Andy


I must respectfully disagree. If we just use sunset as the end of soaring
flight that gives an unfair advantage to a pilot that is far from home or at
altitude when the sun sets. He/she should have planned ahead and landed on
time.

Paul Remde

Isn't it exactly the same "advantage" any motorglider has when they
start the engine far from home and get scored up to that point? Andy's
suggestion will allow pilots to land back home safely few minutes after
sunset if necessary rather then land out to get scored, or fly back
home and don't get scored at all...

Ramy

Paul Remde wrote:
Hi Andy,

I must respectfully disagree. If we just use sunset as the end of soaring
flight that gives an unfair advantage to a pilot that is far from home or at
altitude when the sun sets. He/she should have planned ahead and landed on
time.

Paul Remde

Ramy wrote:
Isn't it exactly the same "advantage" any motorglider has when they
start the engine far from home and get scored up to that point? Andy's
suggestion will allow pilots to land back home safely few minutes after
sunset if necessary rather then land out to get scored, or fly back
home and don't get scored at all...

No it's not the same. The MG is not breaking a FAR by starting the
engine. Flying a sailplane after sunset without position lights is
ILLEGAL. Time and position is something our FRs measure quite
accurately, and "official" sunset is available before the flight.
There is no excuse or "fudge factor" as is possible within some limits
on altitude and SUA penetration.

Until recently, I was unaware of the difference between "night flight"
and need for position lights, so thought it was OK to fly until 30
minutes beyond sunset. I now know it is not. I know I've busted this
rule in the past out of ignorance, but not in the last 5-10 years if I
recall.

As with any law, ignorance is not an excuse, so I would have not
hesitated to witdraw a claim that proves a violation on my part.

-Tom

Tom, I was referring to the "competitive advantage" comment by Paul,
not to the legal issue. I think it is unlikely that someone will take
advantage of it and plan to land after sunset. But since you mentioned
the FAR, not only many pilots such as you and me were not completely
aware of it, but the badge and record committe as well as some of the
SSA-OLC committe were not aware, and as such many badges and records
over the years (including one state record of mine) were approved
although landed after sunset.

Ramy


5Z wrote:
Ramy wrote:
Isn't it exactly the same "advantage" any motorglider has when they
start the engine far from home and get scored up to that point? Andy's
suggestion will allow pilots to land back home safely few minutes after
sunset if necessary rather then land out to get scored, or fly back
home and don't get scored at all...

No it's not the same. The MG is not breaking a FAR by starting the
engine. Flying a sailplane after sunset without position lights is
ILLEGAL. Time and position is something our FRs measure quite
accurately, and "official" sunset is available before the flight.
There is no excuse or "fudge factor" as is possible within some limits
on altitude and SUA penetration.

Until recently, I was unaware of the difference between "night flight"
and need for position lights, so thought it was OK to fly until 30
minutes beyond sunset. I now know it is not. I know I've busted this
rule in the past out of ignorance, but not in the last 5-10 years if I
recall.

As with any law, ignorance is not an excuse, so I would have not
hesitated to witdraw a claim that proves a violation on my part.

-Tom

It certainly is a competitive advantage for one pilot to be pushing the
envelope on flying to the point where he is potentially forced to violate
the FARs vs. another pilot who is planning ahead and flying conservatively
enough to make sure that he stays legal.

Mike Schumann

"Ramy" wrote in message
ups.com...
Tom, I was referring to the "competitive advantage" comment by Paul,
not to the legal issue. I think it is unlikely that someone will take
advantage of it and plan to land after sunset. But since you mentioned
the FAR, not only many pilots such as you and me were not completely
aware of it, but the badge and record committe as well as some of the
SSA-OLC committe were not aware, and as such many badges and records
over the years (including one state record of mine) were approved
although landed after sunset.

Ramy


5Z wrote:
Ramy wrote:
Isn't it exactly the same "advantage" any motorglider has when they
start the engine far from home and get scored up to that point? Andy's
suggestion will allow pilots to land back home safely few minutes after
sunset if necessary rather then land out to get scored, or fly back
home and don't get scored at all...

No it's not the same. The MG is not breaking a FAR by starting the
engine. Flying a sailplane after sunset without position lights is
ILLEGAL. Time and position is something our FRs measure quite
accurately, and "official" sunset is available before the flight.
There is no excuse or "fudge factor" as is possible within some limits
on altitude and SUA penetration.

Until recently, I was unaware of the difference between "night flight"
and need for position lights, so thought it was OK to fly until 30
minutes beyond sunset. I now know it is not. I know I've busted this
rule in the past out of ignorance, but not in the last 5-10 years if I
recall.

As with any law, ignorance is not an excuse, so I would have not
hesitated to witdraw a claim that proves a violation on my part.

-Tom

Paul Remde wrote:

I must respectfully disagree. If we just use sunset as the end of soaring
flight that gives an unfair advantage to a pilot that is far from home or at
altitude when the sun sets. He/she should have planned ahead and landed on
time.

And exactly which time would that be, Paul?

You seem to have lost track of the story so far:
Doug wants to be able to pick illegal flights on OLC but he's having
trouble deciding which flights are illegal because he doesn't know when
it's "sunset" (as 'un'defined in the FARs) at all the places OLC flights
go to. Last night two astronomers locked horns and are heading for the
jugular over when sunset might be.

Now read on:

I know this won't help but in Oz the rules a
1. "Night" is the period between the end of evening civil twilight and
the beginning of morning civil twilight.
2. CASA (FAA equivalent) publishes beginning and end of daylight graphs
for latitudes from 0 to 45 throughout the year.
3. Daylight flight occurs between those times after converting local
time to Standard/Daylight Time.

Note that daylight "ceases" at a particular longitude solely dependent
on its latitude. No allowance for terrain, etc.

But the following is also in the AIP:
"Users ... should note that the parameters used in compiling the ...
Graphs do not include the nature of the terrain ... other than a
cloudless sky and unlimited visibility ... Consequently, the presence
of cloud cover, poor visibility or high terrain to the west of an
aerodrome will cause daylight to end ... earlier than that extracted
from the appropriate graph.
Allowance should made for these factors when planning a flight..."

The rules are reasonable but are no help in maintaining a level playing
field for a gliding competition.

So, Doug. Make up your mind what arbitrary rule you would like to
implement for the SSA-OLC and publish it. Let's say - evening civil
twilight at the latitude.

Stop using the FAA as an excuse and a crutch. Stand on your own feet.
Make a rule. Publish it. Enforce it. Cop the flak.

GC

Hi,

I have a crazy, wild suggestion.... Fly your task so that you land before
any known definition of sunset and you will never need to worry. That is
what most pilots do. Those that do not are not playing fair - in my
opinion.

Paul Remde


"Graeme Cant" gcantinter@tnodedotnet wrote in message
...
Paul Remde wrote:

I must respectfully disagree. If we just use sunset as the end of
soaring flight that gives an unfair advantage to a pilot that is far from
home or at altitude when the sun sets. He/she should have planned ahead
and landed on time.

And exactly which time would that be, Paul?

You seem to have lost track of the story so far:
Doug wants to be able to pick illegal flights on OLC but he's having
trouble deciding which flights are illegal because he doesn't know when
it's "sunset" (as 'un'defined in the FARs) at all the places OLC flights
go to. Last night two astronomers locked horns and are heading for the
jugular over when sunset might be.

Now read on:

I know this won't help but in Oz the rules a
1. "Night" is the period between the end of evening civil twilight and
the beginning of morning civil twilight.
2. CASA (FAA equivalent) publishes beginning and end of daylight graphs
for latitudes from 0 to 45 throughout the year.
3. Daylight flight occurs between those times after converting local time
to Standard/Daylight Time.

Note that daylight "ceases" at a particular longitude solely dependent on
its latitude. No allowance for terrain, etc.

But the following is also in the AIP:
"Users ... should note that the parameters used in compiling the ...
Graphs do not include the nature of the terrain ... other than a cloudless
sky and unlimited visibility ... Consequently, the presence of cloud
cover, poor visibility or high terrain to the west of an aerodrome will
cause daylight to end ... earlier than that extracted from the appropriate
graph.
Allowance should made for these factors when planning a flight..."

The rules are reasonable but are no help in maintaining a level playing
field for a gliding competition.

So, Doug. Make up your mind what arbitrary rule you would like to
implement for the SSA-OLC and publish it. Let's say - evening civil
twilight at the latitude.

Stop using the FAA as an excuse and a crutch. Stand on your own feet.
Make a rule. Publish it. Enforce it. Cop the flak.

GC

wrote:
Do you suppose the FAA has addressed this issue?

ARTHUR:
The swallow may fly south with the sun or the house martin or the
plover may seek warmer climes in winter, yet these are not strangers to
our land?
SOLDIER #1:
Are you suggesting coconuts migrate?
ARTHUR:
Not at all. They could be carried.
SOLDIER #1:
What? A swallow carrying a coconut?
ARTHUR:
It could grip it by the husk!
SOLDIER #1:
It's not a question of where he grips it! It's a simple question of
weight ratios! A five ounce bird could not carry a one pound coconut.
ARTHUR:
Well, it doesn't matter. Will you go and tell your master that
Arthur from the Court of Camelot is here?
SOLDIER #1:
Listen. In order to maintain air-speed velocity, a swallow needs to
beat its wings forty-three times every second, right?
ARTHUR:
Please!
SOLDIER #1:
Am I right?
ARTHUR:
I'm not interested!
SOLDIER #2:
It could be carried by an African swallow!
SOLDIER #1:
Oh, yeah, an African swallow maybe, but not a European swallow.
That's my point.
SOLDIER #2:
Oh, yeah, I agree with that.
ARTHUR:
Will you ask your master if he wants to join my court at Camelot?!
SOLDIER #1:
But then of course a-- African swallows are non-migratory.
SOLDIER #2:
Oh, yeah.
SOLDIER #1:
So, they couldn't bring a coconut back anyway.
[clop clop clop]
SOLDIER #2:
Wait a minute! Supposing two swallows carried it together?
SOLDIER #1:
No, they'd have to have it on a line.
SOLDIER #2:
Well, simple! They'd just use a strand of creeper!
SOLDIER #1:
What, held under the dorsal guiding feathers?
SOLDIER #2:
Well, why not?