Showing metal at 1,100 hours

I've put over 1,000 of the 1,100 hours on this new O-360-C4f. Changed
the oil religiously. I didn't baby the engine but didn't abuse it
either. Always hangered etc.

My last oil analysis showed a doubling of iron 47.9ppm to 101.0ppm with
36 hours on the oil. Everything else normal. We did the filter and we
found very fine iron filings or dust with a magnet. How much - hard to
tell. No chunks though.

We're thinking cam and lifter.

My mechanic is playing it safe - called Signature and Mattituch who
recommended no more flying, split the case, and fix or overhaul.

I want some second opinions. I could fly 10 more hours and take another
look. We could pull a cylinder and check the cam I'm told.

I've read about Second OilPINION and Howard Felton - a knowledgeable
analysis of the metal seems like money well spent. Is he still in
business? Anyone know anyone else who can do this?

Any other factors? My exhaust manifold/heat exchanger broke and I flew
for 10 to 36 hours with it broken. Parts 'banging' around under the
cowling etc. Discovered it during oil change. I did let it sit without
running for 60+ days - a first for this aircraft.

Thoughts?

Maulesitter.

Hey MD, I don't have any advice, but ... sorry to hear that. I feel your pain.

Dave

Maule Driver wrote:

My last oil analysis showed a doubling of iron 47.9ppm to 101.0ppm with
36 hours on the oil. Everything else normal. We did the filter and we
found very fine iron filings or dust with a magnet. How much - hard to
tell. No chunks though.

We're thinking cam and lifter.

Maule Driver wrote:

We're thinking cam and lifter.


Thoughts?
Maulesitter.

Have you EVER done a cold start with no preheat below 32 degF? or maybe
even higher temps with summer weight oil?

Another airplane on our field with 360 just lost the cam and lifter
last month and it caused big time damage while they piddled around
with, "well, lets fly it a while and look at the filter again."... The
lifter spalled off chunks shortly after that decision and the pistons
picked the debries up on the skirts and scored the cylinders... His
'repair' on a 700 hour engine is now $10K....

Pull a cylinder and borescope the cam... Not a lot of bucks or downtime
to do this and you can make an informed decision, not a guess...

denny

http://www.sacskyranch.com/camshaft.htm

Some cam pics and comments.

I'd pull a cylinder and do some looking. I've been told by our AI that once
cams start spalling, they don't stop and the chunks usually get bigger.
Jim

"Maule Driver" wrote in message
news
I've put over 1,000 of the 1,100 hours on this new O-360-C4f. Changed
the oil religiously. I didn't baby the engine but didn't abuse it
either. Always hangered etc.

My last oil analysis showed a doubling of iron 47.9ppm to 101.0ppm with
36 hours on the oil. Everything else normal. We did the filter and we
found very fine iron filings or dust with a magnet. How much - hard to
tell. No chunks though.

We're thinking cam and lifter.

My mechanic is playing it safe - called Signature and Mattituch who
recommended no more flying, split the case, and fix or overhaul.

I want some second opinions. I could fly 10 more hours and take another
look. We could pull a cylinder and check the cam I'm told.

I've read about Second OilPINION and Howard Felton - a knowledgeable
analysis of the metal seems like money well spent. Is he still in
business? Anyone know anyone else who can do this?

Any other factors? My exhaust manifold/heat exchanger broke and I flew
for 10 to 36 hours with it broken. Parts 'banging' around under the
cowling etc. Discovered it during oil change. I did let it sit without
running for 60+ days - a first for this aircraft.

Thoughts?

Maulesitter.

Maulesitter,
You do not need to pull a cylider to look at the cam.
Just pull the rocker arms, push rods, tubes and lifters. You can peer in
the hole with a flash light and mirrow.
Michelle

Maule Driver wrote:

I've put over 1,000 of the 1,100 hours on this new O-360-C4f. Changed
the oil religiously. I didn't baby the engine but didn't abuse it
either. Always hangered etc.

My last oil analysis showed a doubling of iron 47.9ppm to 101.0ppm
with 36 hours on the oil. Everything else normal. We did the filter
and we found very fine iron filings or dust with a magnet. How much -
hard to tell. No chunks though.

We're thinking cam and lifter.

My mechanic is playing it safe - called Signature and Mattituch who
recommended no more flying, split the case, and fix or overhaul.

I want some second opinions. I could fly 10 more hours and take
another look. We could pull a cylinder and check the cam I'm told.

I've read about Second OilPINION and Howard Felton - a knowledgeable
analysis of the metal seems like money well spent. Is he still in
business? Anyone know anyone else who can do this?

Any other factors? My exhaust manifold/heat exchanger broke and I
flew for 10 to 36 hours with it broken. Parts 'banging' around under
the cowling etc. Discovered it during oil change. I did let it sit
without running for 60+ days - a first for this aircraft.

Thoughts?

Maulesitter.

Like Michelle said!

Or pull the jug , right rear, and have a boo at the cam & lifters.
With Lyc's it is most often the back 2-3 lobes..

Dont 'ask.....

It WAS a 2700 hr engine tho.....

Dave


On Fri, 16 Dec 2005 23:24:45 GMT, Michelle P
wrote:

Maulesitter,
You do not need to pull a cylider to look at the cam.
Just pull the rocker arms, push rods, tubes and lifters. You can peer in
the hole with a flash light and mirrow.
Michelle

Maule Driver wrote:

I've put over 1,000 of the 1,100 hours on this new O-360-C4f. Changed
the oil religiously. I didn't baby the engine but didn't abuse it
either. Always hangered etc.

My last oil analysis showed a doubling of iron 47.9ppm to 101.0ppm
with 36 hours on the oil. Everything else normal. We did the filter
and we found very fine iron filings or dust with a magnet. How much -
hard to tell. No chunks though.

We're thinking cam and lifter.

My mechanic is playing it safe - called Signature and Mattituch who
recommended no more flying, split the case, and fix or overhaul.

I want some second opinions. I could fly 10 more hours and take
another look. We could pull a cylinder and check the cam I'm told.

I've read about Second OilPINION and Howard Felton - a knowledgeable
analysis of the metal seems like money well spent. Is he still in
business? Anyone know anyone else who can do this?

Any other factors? My exhaust manifold/heat exchanger broke and I
flew for 10 to 36 hours with it broken. Parts 'banging' around under
the cowling etc. Discovered it during oil change. I did let it sit
without running for 60+ days - a first for this aircraft.

Thoughts?

Maulesitter.

On Fri, 16 Dec 2005 16:36:36 GMT, Maule Driver
wrote:

I've put over 1,000 of the 1,100 hours on this new O-360-C4f. Changed
the oil religiously. I didn't baby the engine but didn't abuse it
either. Always hangered etc.

My last oil analysis showed a doubling of iron 47.9ppm to 101.0ppm with
36 hours on the oil. Everything else normal. We did the filter and we
found very fine iron filings or dust with a magnet. How much - hard to
tell. No chunks though.

We're thinking cam and lifter.

snip

Thoughts?

Does the engine sit idle for extended periods of time?
Storage/operating climate?

Lycoming could analyze the filter contents, or you could use other
facilities.

http://www.championaerospace.com/oil_kit.html


http://www.avlab.com/

As Denny indicated, at mid-time, it would be advisable to make a
positive determination before possibly doing more damage.

Pulling a cylinder and getting it honed and new rings fitted (might
have the e-valve guide looked at while your at it) is pretty cheap
compared to an early overhaul. If you have access to a decent shop,
pulling a con rod and inspecting the bearing is also a good idea when
you suspect metal contamination.

TC

On Fri, 16 Dec 2005 23:24:45 GMT, Michelle P
wrote:

Maulesitter,
You do not need to pull a cylider to look at the cam.
Just pull the rocker arms, push rods, tubes and lifters. You can peer in
the hole with a flash light and mirrow.
Michelle

Unless it's one of the few Lycomings running around with
automotive-style barrel lifter bodies, the engine has mushroom lifter
bodies. The portion that rides on the cam lobe has a larger o.d. than
the rest of the body (and the corresponding hole in the crankcase).

TC

"Maule Driver" wrote in message
news
I want some second opinions. I could fly 10 more hours and take another
look. We could pull a cylinder and check the cam I'm told.

Or fly another 10 hours and wind up with a ruined engine and a much larger
bill. I would play it safe.