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Lye as an aluminum cleaner?
I've taken my aileron apart and notice corrosion on the thin aluminum
parts, so I'm reading around about cleaning prior to alodining. I've taken a stainless steel brush to the surface and removed most of the corrosion, but it's really a PITA. Someone suggested using lye as a cleaner. Anyone have any experience using supermarket lye in that role? - Mike |
#2
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Lye as an aluminum cleaner?
Michael Horowitz wrote:
I've taken my aileron apart and notice corrosion on the thin aluminum parts, so I'm reading around about cleaning prior to alodining. I've taken a stainless steel brush to the surface and removed most of the corrosion, but it's really a PITA. Someone suggested using lye as a cleaner. Anyone have any experience using supermarket lye in that role? - Mike Dunk it in a concentrated solution of lye, come back in a day, and you won't see any corrosion! OTOH, the aluminium will have totally dissolved. Lye as a aluminium cleaner is possible, in some very few circumstances. I'd suggest thin aluminium parts are not one. You might find a wirebrush in a drill is a good idea. And if they are in fact that corroded, consider if the strength has been affected. |
#3
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Lye as an aluminum cleaner?
On 14 Oct 2006 13:25:41 GMT, Ian Stirling
wrote: Michael Horowitz wrote: I've taken my aileron apart and notice corrosion on the thin aluminum parts, so I'm reading around about cleaning prior to alodining. I've taken a stainless steel brush to the surface and removed most of the corrosion, but it's really a PITA. Someone suggested using lye as a cleaner. Anyone have any experience using supermarket lye in that role? - Mike Dunk it in a concentrated solution of lye, come back in a day, and you won't see any corrosion! OTOH, the aluminium will have totally dissolved. Lye as a aluminium cleaner is possible, in some very few circumstances. I'd suggest thin aluminium parts are not one. You might find a wirebrush in a drill is a good idea. And if they are in fact that corroded, consider if the strength has been affected. I've wirebrushed 'til everything is shiny and was looking for an inexpensive cleaner prior to alodizing; maybe it is poor economy; someone suggested I look for the PPG line of cleaner and alodiner - that would help keep me from wrapping myself around the axle over which way to go. Thanks, Mike |
#4
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Lye as an aluminum cleaner?
"Michael Horowitz" wrote in message
... I've taken my aileron apart and notice corrosion on the thin aluminum parts, so I'm reading around about cleaning prior to alodining. I've taken a stainless steel brush to the surface and removed most of the corrosion, but it's really a PITA. Someone suggested using lye as a cleaner. Anyone have any experience using supermarket lye in that role? - Mike I assume that this person is not a friend... I've used Drano to remove the remains of an aluminium piston from inside an iron cylinder (it was already bored to the max). It worked great... bye-bye aluminium. -- Geoff The Sea Hawk at Wow Way d0t Com remove spaces and make the obvious substitutions to reply by mail When immigration is outlawed, only outlaws will immigrate. |
#5
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Lye as an aluminum cleaner?
Michael Horowitz wrote: I've taken my aileron apart and notice corrosion on the thin aluminum parts, so I'm reading around about cleaning prior to alodining. I've taken a stainless steel brush to the surface and removed most of the corrosion, but it's really a PITA. Someone suggested using lye as a cleaner. Anyone have any experience using supermarket lye in that role? - Mike It's almost against the rules of this newsgroup to make a positive suggestion, dedicated as we are to tearing one another down, but I'll risk it ;-) The Right Way to clean mild surface corrosion off aluminum is to soak it in a mild solution of phosphoric acid, and scrub it with a scotchbrite pad. Suitable solutions are sold as tile cleaners or "metal prep". Personally, I wouldn't use a stainless wire brush. It's a little too aggressive, and the deep scratches it will leave are likely places to start a fatigue crack. If Jasco Metal Prep (a common West Coast brand) and a scotchbrite pad won't take off the corrosion, you've got a Dead Part, IMHO. |
#6
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Lye as an aluminum cleaner?
On 14 Oct 2006 09:19:06 -0700, "flybynightkarmarepair"
wrote: Michael Horowitz wrote: I've taken my aileron apart and notice corrosion on the thin aluminum parts, so I'm reading around about cleaning prior to alodining. I've taken a stainless steel brush to the surface and removed most of the corrosion, but it's really a PITA. Someone suggested using lye as a cleaner. Anyone have any experience using supermarket lye in that role? - Mike It's almost against the rules of this newsgroup to make a positive suggestion, dedicated as we are to tearing one another down, but I'll risk it ;-) The Right Way to clean mild surface corrosion off aluminum is to soak it in a mild solution of phosphoric acid, and scrub it with a scotchbrite pad. Suitable solutions are sold as tile cleaners or "metal prep". Personally, I wouldn't use a stainless wire brush. It's a little too aggressive, and the deep scratches it will leave are likely places to start a fatigue crack. If Jasco Metal Prep (a common West Coast brand) and a scotchbrite pad won't take off the corrosion, you've got a Dead Part, IMHO. Thanks; I have a similar product I used to strip zinc off conduit for inexpensive tubing (for welding practice); I'll give it a whirl - Mike |
#7
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Lye as an aluminum cleaner?
In article ,
Michael Horowitz wrote: I've taken my aileron apart and notice corrosion on the thin aluminum parts, so I'm reading around about cleaning prior to alodining. I've taken a stainless steel brush to the surface and removed most of the corrosion, but it's really a PITA. Someone suggested using lye as a cleaner. Anyone have any experience using supermarket lye in that role? - Mike Yes -- lye is used as an etch prior to alodyning. I would, however, use a mild phosphoric acid solution first to remove the corrosion. The aluminum should be left in the lye solution (NOT Drano, as it contains potassium hydroxide, in addition to the sodium hydroxide) for no more than 5 minutes -- just enough to etch the aluminum. The handbooks recommend a sodium hydroxide solution heated to 120 F for best results. |
#8
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Lye as an aluminum cleaner?
In article ,
Orval Fairbairn wrote: In article , Michael Horowitz wrote: I've taken my aileron apart and notice corrosion on the thin aluminum parts, so I'm reading around about cleaning prior to alodining. I've taken a stainless steel brush to the surface and removed most of the corrosion, but it's really a PITA. Someone suggested using lye as a cleaner. Anyone have any experience using supermarket lye in that role? - Mike Yes -- lye is used as an etch prior to alodyning. I would, however, use a mild phosphoric acid solution first to remove the corrosion. The aluminum should be left in the lye solution (NOT Drano, as it contains potassium hydroxide, in addition to the sodium hydroxide) for no more than 5 minutes -- just enough to etch the aluminum. The handbooks recommend a sodium hydroxide solution heated to 120 F for best results. Sorry -- I neglected to state that you have to rinse the metal thoroughly after the lye etch, and before the alodine. |
#9
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Lye as an aluminum cleaner?
Michael Horowitz wrote: I've taken my aileron apart and notice corrosion on the thin aluminum parts, so I'm reading around about cleaning prior to alodining. I've taken a stainless steel brush to the surface and removed most of the corrosion, but it's really a PITA. Someone suggested using lye as a cleaner. Anyone have any experience using supermarket lye in that role? - Mike ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Dear Mike, The suggestion by 'Someone' is a nice example of Conventional Wisdom, which is always WRONG even though based on a kernal of truth. The kernal of truth is that sodium hydroxide (ie, common lye without any additives [meaning you can't use drain cleaner] get the stuff used for making soap) has long been a standard in the preparation of aluminum surfaces. Then comes a host of 'unimportant details' always ignored by the Conventional Wisdomites, such as the exactly strength and temperature of the solution, how many minutes (or even seconds!) the part(s) is to be dipped, and the number & nature of the following neutralizing rinses. But the main fallacy here is that your primary interest is NOT surface-prep but elimination of corrosion. Airplane don't use much PURE aluminum. What we use are aluminum ALLOYS. For aviation use, the most common alloying elements are copper, magnesium and zinc, with manganese, silicon and tin being less common. 'Corrosion' in airframes falls into two broad categories with WATER common to both. In the first case, water reacts with the alloying element, producing by-products with then react with the aluminum. In the second case IMPURE water reacts with both the aluminum and its alloying elements. About the only time you see the first case is when the water comes from snow. In all other caes, including rain water, due to contaminants in the atmosphere (mostly sulphur but LOTS of otheres) the water is sufficient impure to react directly with both the base metal and the alloying element. (Ever heard of 'acid rain'? It's even more damaging to airplanes than it is to forests, people, stone buildings and so forth.) The type of 'corrosion' we're dealing with is usually an oxide (but it can also be a sulfide, halide and so on). To get rid of the corrosion you need something that attacks it more vigorously than it attacks either the aluminum OR its alloying elements. Which is why lye is a bad, bad idea for corrosion removal. (Lye LOVES aluminum! It eats it all up and rubs its tummy for more.) Phosphoric Acid (as found in Coca-Cola and other soft drinks) is a good, good, idea when it comes to cracking the code for aluminum corrosion, since it loves the oxides more than the aluminum itself. (Notice the can your soda-pop came in?) Phosphoric Acid that has 'Aviation Certified' on the label costs a lot more than Phosphoric Acid which does not. For light corrosion, lay the brush aside and try a wad of aluminum foil as your scrubber. Next step up is a Fine-grade non-metallic abrasive pad. In each case, allow the acid to treat the scrubbed, abraided surface. For thin gauge sheetmetal, that's about as far as you can go since any pit produced by the corrosion (or scratch resulting from your efforts to remove it) whose depth exceeds 10% of the metal's thickness, is grounds for rejection. (Sections of the wings of military aircraft which must be walked upon during normal servicing are often forty to sixty thou in thickness, not because the airplane needs that amount of strength but because those surfaces must also serve as walk-ways.) When the depth of the corrosion is 10% of the material's thickness, you then estimate the AREA of the corrosion. If it covers more than 20% of the surface area, the part is usually tagged for replacement. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Wherever two aluminum-alloy surfaces are in close contact, if water is present it will be drawn into the gap (and there is ALWAYS a gap) by capillary action. To prevent having our airplanes dissolve like aspirin tablets -- even with alloys deemed 'non-corrosive' (which is bull****) -- it is standard procedure to ALWAYS give such surfaces a wipe of zinc chromate before assembly. Better still is to give each component an overall spritz of zinc chromate. Yeah, it adds a tiny bit to the cost, weight and assembly time. But you are seeing what happens when those standard practices are ignored. So don't use lye. Unless you know how to, when to and why. Do use phosphoric acid, then neutralize it good with copious amounts of BOILING HOT water (and use an oven or a heat gun to make sure all the cracks are water-free after). THEN give it a spritz of zinc chromate... because you CAN'T apply alodine, et al, to an assembled structure. (Not only is it a waste of time & money, you're liable to PROMOTE a new form of corrosion (chromate-ion growth) in the cracks between the assembled parts. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Don't shy away from making yourself a set of new ailerons from scratch. With a corroded but otherewise undamaged aileron as your model the task is not as difficult as it might seem. -R.S.Hoover PS -- There's no mystery to the alloying elements in aviation-grade aluminum, they form the basis of their SAE nomenclature such as 2024, 6061 and 7075. The leading number indicates the PRINCIPLE alloying element; 2 = copper, 6 = magnesium, 7 = zinc and so on... if that's news to you, grab a copy of the ASS Co. catalog and give it a read. With regard to corrosion, if you never took chemistry you might find it worth your time to obtain a Periodic Table of the Elements and a good basic text, such as Linus Paulings 'General Chemistry,' (probably out of print). Rivet together a few coupons, do a few kitchen-table experiments, add a bit of time and you will end up with a better PRACTICAL knowledge of corrosion than most A&P's. You may then use your corroded coupons to test various methods of removing that corrosion, which is an education in itself, especially when you see that the 'aviation-grade' chemicals (costing up to five times as much) do no better -- and occasionally worse -- than chemicals from your local paint store. Naval Aviation exists -- literally! -- upon a good knowledge of corrosion control. There are some outstanding Navy manuals written for the average guy (or at least, the average sailor :-) taken from the technical manuals, methods & procedures used by Grumman and Douglas (ie, traditional builders of Naval aircraft) who can still teach Boeing and Lockheed a trick or two when it comes to corrosion prevention and aircraft maintenance in a corrosive environment (such as bobbing around the ocean on one of them big grey things... I forget what you call them... ) -- rsh (USN, retired [and Master of the Run-On Sentence]) |
#10
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Lye as an aluminum cleaner?
"Orval Fairbairn" wrote in message
news In article , Orval Fairbairn wrote: In article , Michael Horowitz wrote: ... Yes -- lye is used as an etch prior to alodyning. I would, however, use a mild phosphoric acid solution first to remove the corrosion. The aluminum should be left in the lye solution (NOT Drano, as it contains potassium hydroxide, in addition to the sodium hydroxide) for no more than 5 minutes -- just enough to etch the aluminum. The handbooks recommend a sodium hydroxide solution heated to 120 F for best results. Sorry -- I neglected to state that you have to rinse the metal thoroughly after the lye etch, and before the alodine. Well, I guess you learn something every day. -- Geoff The Sea Hawk at Wow Way d0t Com remove spaces and make the obvious substitutions to reply by mail When immigration is outlawed, only outlaws will immigrate. |
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