Experimental Instrument Rated?

At least in US many homebuilt ("experimental") are authorized
for IRF. Certified is somewhat a wrong term to use since
experimental aircraft are never type certified for any flight.

I am just in process of getting a homebuilt checked out
by FAA for airworthiness. It is on the airworthiness operating
limitations that the FAA indicates whether the aircraft is
authorized for VFR day, night or IFR - at the time of inspection.

If you ever attend Oshkosh, go to the FAA booth and have all your
questions aswered.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Paul Lee, SQ2000 canard project: http://www.abri.com/sq2000

"CFLav8r" wrote in message m...
Is it true that an experimental aircraft can not be instrument certified by
the FAA?

David (KORL)

On Sun, 08 Feb 2004 15:48:15 GMT, "Gerry Caron"
wrote:


"Roger Halstead" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 07 Feb 2004 22:05:04 GMT, (Ben Jackson) wrote:

In article ,
Ron Wanttaja wrote:
As several other folks have pointed out, there is no such thing as "IFR
Certified"...if any aircraft is equipped in accordance to CFR 91.205(d)

But a Diamond DA-20 can be equipped (probably even comes) with all the
necessary IFR equipment, but you can't actually fly it IFR because they
didn't embed the metal mesh in the composite skin like they did in the
DA-40.

I'd seriously doubt the metal mesh would keep it from being certified
for IFR. The Beech Starship didn't have a metal mesh and it was
certified for IFR.


Believe it. The mesh provides the lightning protection required to meet the
current Part 23 rules. Starship is one of the reasons the HIRF and
lightning standards have increased by several orders of magnitude over the
last 10 years. I know guys who worked the Starship's avionics. It was a
headache then to meet the old specs. No way it could be certificated today
without the extra shielding.

The key words in whether you can fly IFR are OPERATING LIMITATIONS. If your
operating limitations say "VFR only" you can't fly IFR even if you have the
equipment in 14 CFR 91.205(d). If it doesn't say you can't, or it says you
can; then you can fly IFR if you meet all the other requirements in Part
91.

All aircraft have operating limitations. An experimental gets them as part
of the airworthiness certificate. These are pretty loose since it doesn't

You just have it equiped for IFR at that time and it will be.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com
have to meet any of the 14 CFR Part 23 requirements. A certificated
aircraft gets its operating limitations as part of its type certificate. If
it can't meet 14 CFR 23.1309 (b), it will be limited to VFR. While it
doesn't say anything about lightning, section 23.1309 (b)(4)(i) refers to
"...including malfunctions and damage from external sources;" Lightning and
HIRF are external sources that must be addressed by the applicant.

Gerry

"CFLav8r" wrote in message ...
Is it true that an experimental aircraft can not be instrument certified by
the FAA?

Most homebuilts get a clause in their operating limitations that say they can be
flown IFR provided they are equipped by the regs.

"Roy Smith" wrote in message ...

There was a NOVA a bunch of years back on the development of the 777.
It looked kind of wierd to see an airliner with the same "EXPERIMENTAL"
sticker pasted over the door that would you see on a contraption some
guy built in his garage.

Yep and they showed the thing shooting multiple ILS's to DH trying to get into the
test strip.

My favorite part of the show was despite the fact that they had people on a conference
call to transfer the funds and run the paperwork into OKC by hand, they use the same
little bill of sale and temporary registration that they do on our little planes. After the
guy fills it out he tears off the temporary registration copy and tells someone to go out
and stick it in the airplane.

"JFLEISC" wrote in message ...
The way I figure it, if it is IFR equipped then why couldn't it be IFR
certified?

I'm a little confused here. I didn't think anything on an experimental aircraft
was 'certified'. If it was then it wouldn't be 'experimental'. Experimentals
are not 'certified' to "fly" but they legally do.

They have airworthiness certificates. Attached to the experimental airworthiness
certificate is a list of conditions for operation. These spell out if the aircraft can
be operated at night or IFR. Homebuilts will usually get this permission.

What they don't have is type certification.

"Dave" wrote in message ...
Yah... as I understand it, experimental certified aircraft can do
everything a normal/utility certified aircraft can do except:

carry people for hire.

That's not quite right. It's mostly right for "Experimental--Amateur Built."
There are some vague additional restrictions like flights in congested airways
(nobody has ever explained to me what a congested airway is, other than perhaps
the segment between Ripon and OSH during Airventure, which wouldn't be so
congested if they got rid of the homebuilts).

Other types of experimental certification typically have more restrictive limitations.
(Like no unnecessary passengers at all).

"Ron Wanttaja" wrote in message ...

As several other folks have pointed out, there is no such thing as "IFR
Certified"...if any aircraft is equipped in accordance to CFR 91.205(d) and
receives the required regular equipment checks, it can legally be used to
fly IFR.

A rub is that the type certificates for some non-experimentals specifically call
out different restrictions than just complying with 91.205.

"Orval Fairbairn" wrote in message newsrfairbairn_spam_sucks-
Nope -- lightning protection and dissipation. Lightning can literally
blow apart nonmetallic structures and home in on the occupants in
flight, without tha Faraday cage effect of the metal mesh.

It's more than just lightening. Even without a direct strike, the thing will have
enough problems with static to be annoying.

"CFLav8r" wrote
My question is about the aircraft not the ability to fly it in IFR
conditions.

Your answers are to be found in the operating limitations for the
aircraft in question. Standard operating limitations for experimental
amateur-built aircraft are give in FAA Order 8130.2d, Change 2. While
the inspector issuing the certificate has some discretion, generally
they are issued as written. I call attention to the following:

Page 112, Par 134, line item 8: After completion of Phase I flight
testing, unless appropriately equipped for night and/or instrument
flight in accordance with 91.205, this aircraft is to be operated
under VFR, day only.

So after Phase I, if you have the right equipment, you may indeed fly
IFR.

I recently showed my instructor an ad for a Glasair and he remarked that
you could never get it IFR certified with the FAA.

Well, you couldn't get a Glasair certified in any way - VFR or IFR.
It does not meet the requirements of Part 23. That does not mean you
can't operate it under IFR.

When people talk about an airplane being IFR certified, they are
usually talking about the seminannual pitot/static and transponder
checks required by 14CFR91.411 and 14CFR91.413, which is performed by
an instrument shop, not the FAA. If that is the 'certification' he is
talking about, then he is simply wrong.

That didn't make much sense to me, but then again I am the student and he
is the instructor.

Just because someone has a CFI ticket doesn't mean he necessarily
knows anything. It's just a piece of paper issued by some federal
bureaucrat.

The way I figure it, if it is IFR equipped then why couldn't it be IFR
certified?

See above. If you mean certified under Part 23, plenty of reasons
having to do with stall speed, stability, lack of lightning
protection, etc. If you mean certified by a technician to meet the
requirements of 91.411 and 91.413, then no reason at all.

Michael