Suggestions and/or help, please!

Did I mention that our Govorner Vilsak has cut spending on airports to
virtually nothing? This is the same guy that has to have somebody
print his e-mails, so that he can read them, and write replys via US
Mail. In an article last week, he says that he is technologically
behind. Damn liberals.
Jeff

Ouch. Where to begin?

The Cedar Rapids airport is easily within 20 minutes of the Iowa City
airport.

This is nonsense. I drive it all the time, and I can't make it in 20
minutes, door to door. At least not legally. It's more like 30.

Small runways for charter planes (athletics)

Well, come see the place on "football Saturdays" this fall. You won't
believe some of the mini-airliners that get in here!

Also, when they close RWY 18/36 in the next year or three, Rwy 07 is slated
to be shortened on the east, and Rwy 25 is to be extended to the west.
They're also supposed to get an ILS approach at that time. (Ha! I'm not
holding my breath...)

Development around the airport- some see an accident into the
Wal-Mart/Menards just waiting to happen. Some recent crashes into
the hill to the north keep this argument going (BTW, I know that
there were reasons for the crashes)

Worse, they're now building a 500 unit apartment complex on that very same
hill. That's a bunch of trouble brewing, for the airport and many other
reasons. (Traffic will be a bitch, for sure, with an extra 500 folks in
such a tiny area.)

Approach/departure over the city Approach/Depature over Kinnick
Stadium
Waste of good land- Why in the world do you need three crossing
runways?

See the note above about closing 18/36. There won't be anyone departing
over the city after that closes.

Proximity to Cedar Rapids- Cedar Rapids- only about 15-20 min. away

Now we're down to 15 minutes? Dang, Jeff, what are you driving nowadays?

Services at Cedar Rapids- Tower, security, ILS approaches, crossing
large runways, pleny of room for more GA hangars, snow removal,
police, fire, general maintenance, good hangars

The horrible thing about Cedar Rapids is the security and commercial
activity. Iowa City has the finest GA airport in the nation -- or at least
it's the best I've seen in almost ten years of buzzing around the country.
Every fly-in guest at the inn comments on it, almost without exception.

Duplication- To the layperson (in fact even to me) it seems to be
close enough to each other that one would do. Iowa city would
not only have no expenses, but Cedar Rapids could become
stronger

Actually, it would make a lot more sense to close the Cedar Rapids tower (a
true waste of the taxpayer's dollar) and transfer the commercial flights
back to Iowa City, from whence they came. But that won't happen either...

Liberals- Iowa City is chuck pack full of liberals that really
don't care about folks rich enough to be able to fly.

Boy, that's for sure. And, as under-employed university folks, they've got
all day to stew about it over a cup of mocha...

Medical flights- Most are by copter- doesn't matter

Actually, most transplant organs arrive in fixed wing aircraft. Speed is
life, and copters often just won't do.

Transplant stuff- 20 minutes to CID no big deal. thats the reason
for the igloo's

They measure the success of those transplants based on the "age" of the
donor organ. 20 minutes (more like 30-35) is forever when you're getting a
lung from Michigan...

FBO's- choice of two in Cedar Rapids (Although you probably would
not count PS Air)

I always liked the guys at PS Air -- they just don't know anything about
running a business. And they sure stiffed Iowa City when they packed up and
fled in the middle of the night. All of our current problems flow all the
way back to those *******s insisting on that stupidly huge hangar.

Dollars- Lots of commercial operations to pay the way. Virtually
none in Iowa City.

The City Council and Mayor of Iowa City have stood firmly against the evils
of "development" for the past 40 years (or so I've been told). They wanted
Iowa City to remain a bucolic, pretty little University town, and enacted
dozens of laws that essentially drove all new business away. (Coralridge
Mall -- the largest in the state -- was supposed to be built in Iowa City.
After hearing all the environmental crap they would be required to do, the
developers walked over to Coralville, and built it the way they wanted it
built.)

Now that Coralville and North Liberty are literally eating Iowa City's
lunch, they seem to be changing their tune. Let's hope it's not too late.

Lack of potential growth- I do not believe that any two of the
three
runways could ever be expanded.

See the note about RWY 25, above. The land has been purchased, and all they
need is the go ahead. (Which may never come, of course.)

Opportunity costs- Current use vs. the tax base of developement.
The newer hangar could have other uses if developed around. Money in
rather than money out looks good. The deal about streets doesn't
hold much water because virtually everybody uses the streets.

Brian Sponcil (an occasional contributor to this group) did some digging
into the Iowa City annual budget, and discovered that we spent as much last
year on "cemetery beautification" as we did on the airport.

That's CEMETERY BEAUTIFICATION, Jeff! I think it's obvious that we can
afford to keep the airport open -- the issue is just a huge smoke-screen put
up by the local politicians, so that they look like they're "doing
something" about the budget deficit. And the liberals in town are glad to
fan the class warfare flames.

Cedar Rapids Airport Commision- I think that they squashed the
Marion
Airport expansion a couple of years ago. It is my opinion that
they
will get in your shorts also (I am golfing with one of the
commission
members this week. I will pick his brain)

??? I don't know anything about this. Can you expand on this a bit -- it
must've been before we moved here in '97?

Plenty of land around the Cedar Rapids Airport- Enough room for a
re-located aviation themed hotel

True -- but there's little reason to visit Cedar Rapids. (Sorry!)

It is certainly not that I would like to see it closed, they just have
plenty of reasons to close it. I personally feel that it is just a
matter of time.

Well, that's probably true of all but a dozen or so airports in the country.
I just hope that the inevitable happens long after I've flown my final
flight.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Ouch. Where to begin?

It is not that I totally disagree with you, but, we do need to realize
that there is a pretty good argument towards not having an Iowa City
airport. Heres the "Devils Advocate" in me.

The Cedar Rapids airport is easily within 20 minutes of the Iowa City
airport.

This is nonsense. I drive it all the time, and I can't make it in 20
minutes, door to door. At least not legally. It's more like 30.

Ahhhh, you must be the guy slowing me down!!!

Small runways for charter planes (athletics)

Well, come see the place on "football Saturdays" this fall. You won't
believe some of the mini-airliners that get in here!

Been there, done that! Do the citizens of the city want to afford that
luxury to the "high rollers"? What about the other 355 days of the
year. They could all fly into Cedar Rapids.


Also, when they close RWY 18/36 in the next year or three, Rwy 07 is slated
to be shortened on the east, and Rwy 25 is to be extended to the west.
They're also supposed to get an ILS approach at that time.

If the trucks show up in the middle of the night to "start"
construction, get worried.

(Ha! I'm not
holding my breath...)

Don't hold your breath to long, or there may be more than just a truck
called the purple grape!


Development around the airport- some see an accident into the
Wal-Mart/Menards just waiting to happen. Some recent crashes into
the hill to the north keep this argument going (BTW, I know that
there were reasons for the crashes)

Worse, they're now building a 500 unit apartment complex on that very same
hill. That's a bunch of trouble brewing, for the airport and many other
reasons. (Traffic will be a bitch, for sure, with an extra 500 folks in
such a tiny area.)

Yea, I know. It's a bitch that they build and then complain. Having
said that, the tax base of those 500 units will more than make up for
what the rich folks drop to come in for football. Just think about the
potential tax base sitting there on the field. It is a pretty good
argument. Wait till a guy runs out of gas ans screws himself into one!


Approach/departure over the city Approach/Depature over Kinnick
Stadium
Waste of good land- Why in the world do you need three crossing
runways?

See the note above about closing 18/36. There won't be anyone departing
over the city after that closes.

That may be the only thing that saves the airport. One more
knucklehead crashing anywhere close to the population will shut it
down.

Proximity to Cedar Rapids- Cedar Rapids- only about 15-20 min. away

Now we're down to 15 minutes? Dang, Jeff, what are you driving nowadays?

A Ford Excursion, stay the hell out of my way! Just kidding. i will
look at the clock a little closer next time I drive it and report
back. The two airports had viability when we relied only on the old 2
lane 218 to get us to Iowa City. That was probably an hour drive
airport to airport back then. With 380 built in the late 70's, it
effectively brought the cities closer together.

Services at Cedar Rapids- Tower, security, ILS approaches, crossing
large runways, pleny of room for more GA hangars, snow removal,
police, fire, general maintenance, good hangars

The horrible thing about Cedar Rapids is the security and commercial
activity. Iowa City has the finest GA airport in the nation -- or at least
it's the best I've seen in almost ten years of buzzing around the country.
Every fly-in guest at the inn comments on it, almost without exception.

What is horrible about the security. I hangar there and have NEVER had
a problem at all. In fact, I do not have to worry as much about my
plane/belongings. Don't argue the security thing with non-flyers, or
they will close you down for sure. I am not sure what it is worth to
the citizens of Iowa City, or, the citizens of Iowa that you have the
finest GA airport. I agree with you, but it is not important for me to
subsidize it with my dollars.

Duplication- To the layperson (in fact even to me) it seems to be
close enough to each other that one would do. Iowa city would
not only have no expenses, but Cedar Rapids could become
stronger

Actually, it would make a lot more sense to close the Cedar Rapids tower (a
true waste of the taxpayer's dollar) and transfer the commercial flights
back to Iowa City, from whence they came. But that won't happen either...

Wow, now that would be unsafe!!! Do you really think that IOW have the
infrastructure to handle the commercials along with UPS, Fed EX, and
others. Do you believe that there is any way that Rockwell Collins
(headquartered in Cedar Rapids) would move to Iowa City. There in NO
WAY that IOW comes even close. I will say that the non-GA folks would
go for a tower over saving Iowa City. Keep in mind...nobody really
cares about GA except for the sliver of the population that flies
these little things.

Liberals- Iowa City is chuck pack full of liberals that really
don't care about folks rich enough to be able to fly.

Boy, that's for sure. And, as under-employed university folks, they've got
all day to stew about it over a cup of mocha...

Keep'em down there!!!

Medical flights- Most are by copter- doesn't matter

Actually, most transplant organs arrive in fixed wing aircraft. Speed is
life, and copters often just won't do.

Ah, I said medical flights. Transplants could come into CID.

Transplant stuff- 20 minutes to CID no big deal. thats the reason
for the igloo's

They measure the success of those transplants based on the "age" of the
donor organ. 20 minutes (more like 30-35) is forever when you're getting a
lung from Michigan...

A copter waiting at Cedar Rapids could cut it even more. May be
quicker/safer than the drive from the airport. Could land at the
hospital helipad. Would certainly be less expensive to the folks in
Iowa City by changing the airport into tax base.


FBO's- choice of two in Cedar Rapids (Although you probably would
not count PS Air)

I always liked the guys at PS Air -- they just don't know anything about
running a business. And they sure stiffed Iowa City when they packed up and
fled in the middle of the night. All of our current problems flow all the
way back to those *******s insisting on that stupidly huge hangar.

Wasn't there also a guy that was going to have a charter operation
that put up $1,000,000 worth of United Airlines stock, for the bank to
figure out later that he had altered it, and he only had $10,000 worth
(nowadays worthless)? I don't think that it was all PS Air.


Dollars- Lots of commercial operations to pay the way. Virtually
none in Iowa City.

The City Council and Mayor of Iowa City have stood firmly against the evils
of "development" for the past 40 years (or so I've been told). They wanted
Iowa City to remain a bucolic, pretty little University town, and enacted
dozens of laws that essentially drove all new business away. (Coralridge
Mall -- the largest in the state -- was supposed to be built in Iowa City.
After hearing all the environmental crap they would be required to do, the
developers walked over to Coralville, and built it the way they wanted it
built.)

Now that Coralville and North Liberty are literally eating Iowa City's
lunch, they seem to be changing their tune. Let's hope it's not too late.

It very well may be too late. Urbana to Cedar Rapids to Coralville to
Iowa city will be the corridor. Iowa City sits on the end of the line,
and they think way different than most of us Iowa folks.


Lack of potential growth- I do not believe that any two of the
three
runways could ever be expanded.

See the note about RWY 25, above. The land has been purchased, and all they
need is the go ahead. (Which may never come, of course.)

That is one runway, you need to have a viable crosswind to be a viable
commercial airport so I am told. My bet is that it does not happen.

Opportunity costs- Current use vs. the tax base of developement.
The newer hangar could have other uses if developed around. Money in
rather than money out looks good. The deal about streets doesn't
hold much water because virtually everybody uses the streets.

Brian Sponcil (an occasional contributor to this group) did some digging
into the Iowa City annual budget, and discovered that we spent as much last
year on "cemetery beautification" as we did on the airport.

That's CEMETERY BEAUTIFICATION, Jeff! I think it's obvious that we can
afford to keep the airport open -- the issue is just a huge smoke-screen put
up by the local politicians, so that they look like they're "doing
something" about the budget deficit. And the liberals in town are glad to
fan the class warfare flames.

Stick with that argument and they will not only close the airport, but
also you will begin to have ugly cemeteries!!! My point is that you
cannot argue the fact that the potential tax base sitting there could
bring to the citizens of Iowa City lower property taxes, and a nicer
enviroment for everybody, except the few that fly. Very small %.

Cedar Rapids Airport Commision- I think that they squashed the
Marion
Airport expansion a couple of years ago. It is my opinion that
they
will get in your shorts also (I am golfing with one of the
commission
members this week. I will pick his brain)

??? I don't know anything about this. Can you expand on this a bit -- it
must've been before we moved here in '97?

A few years ago, Marion wanted to expand 18/36, and add a crosswind
runway. The word that I got was that the Cedar Rapids Airport
Commission had enough clout to effectively shut it down. They did not
want marion to take any "operations", the number that federal dollars
are determined by. Expanding IOW would very well do the same thing. I
don't know if you noticed or not, but the Cedar Rapids Municiple
Airport (as known by the FAA), is now going by the name of The Eastern
Iowa Airport. They really expect for this airport to service alot of
eastern iowa. CID is just completing the finsh stages of the 13/31
runway expansion project. We now have two real runways for real planes
(as seen in the eyes of the public). For typical Joe, there would be
no comparison between CID and IOW. Jon Ochenfels may know more of the
details.

Plenty of land around the Cedar Rapids Airport- Enough room for a
re-located aviation themed hotel

True -- but there's little reason to visit Cedar Rapids. (Sorry!)

Ouch, c'mon now. The reason in the future to come to Cedar Rapids may
be to LAND your plane!!!

It is certainly not that I would like to see it closed, they just have
plenty of reasons to close it. I personally feel that it is just a
matter of time.

Well, that's probably true of all but a dozen or so airports in the country.
I just hope that the inevitable happens long after I've flown my final
flight.

I agree, and it is not that I personally believe that it should be
closed. In reality, though, there is a pretty strong argument to do
so. In a time where budgets must be cut, it may be an easy place to do
just that. Iowa City has the foresight of a nightcrawler at times.

I would guess that 95% of Iowa City residents really don't care if the
airport closes, as they do not use it. I would guess that many of
those would rather see a U of I expansion, or something else to bring
jobs utilizing the same dirt.

A psycology teacher that I had at one time made us argue the
counterpoint of anything that we felt strongly for/against. It really
made me see the other side and come up with better arguments to
support my case. I think that it may be time to figure out those
arguments.

Later,
Jeff

jeff wrote:

That is one runway, you need to have a viable crosswind to be a viable
commercial airport so I am told. My bet is that it does not happen.

I wouldn't be too sure about that. Hartsfield (ATL) has four runways, all
lined up the same way (though you could probably set my Maule down sideways
on one of them). Knoxville (TYS) has two, both running the same direction.
Maybe it's a requirement in the midwest.

A psycology teacher that I had at one time made us argue the
counterpoint of anything that we felt strongly for/against. It really
made me see the other side and come up with better arguments to
support my case. I think that it may be time to figure out those
arguments.

Good teacher.

George Patterson
The optimist feels that we live in the best of all possible worlds. The
pessimist is afraid that he's correct.
James Branch Cavel

"G.R. Patterson III" wrote in message ...
jeff wrote:

That is one runway, you need to have a viable crosswind to be a viable
commercial airport so I am told. My bet is that it does not happen.

I wouldn't be too sure about that. Hartsfield (ATL) has four runways, all
lined up the same way (though you could probably set my Maule down sideways
on one of them). Knoxville (TYS) has two, both running the same direction.
Maybe it's a requirement in the midwest.

I could also very well be wrong, although, even if so, I would think
that any commercial operator would rather have the opportunity for a
crosss wind runway. I would think that this would help them as far as
scheduling and costly delays when it gets really windy. I do not
believe that there would be any doubt that Cedar Rapids would be the
airport of choice for any of the commercial airlines. On top of that,
the airports are only about 5 or 10 minutes away from each
other............gotcha Jay (actually about 20).

It could possibly be that one central airport could be much stronger
than two, seperately run airports, IMO.

A psycology teacher that I had at one time made us argue the
counterpoint of anything that we felt strongly for/against. It really
made me see the other side and come up with better arguments to
support my case. I think that it may be time to figure out those
arguments.

Good teacher.

George Patterson
The optimist feels that we live in the best of all possible worlds. The
pessimist is afraid that he's correct.
James Branch Cavel

Jay Honeck wrote:

You are probably right. But I'm hard-pressed to name another similar-sized
university-town anywhere in the country that does NOT have a municipal
airport. Can you think of any?

New Brunswick, NJ, for one. Rutgers is there. Princeton also has no
municipal airport, though there is a privately owned one there. The
citizenry would love to get rid of that one, too.

George Patterson
The optimist feels that we live in the best of all possible worlds. The
pessimist is afraid that he's correct.
James Branch Cavel

On Tue, 22 Jul 2003 19:44:32 GMT, "Jay Honeck"
wrote:

You are probably right. But I'm hard-pressed to name another similar-sized
university-town anywhere in the country that does NOT have a municipal
airport. Can you think of any?

A few in California. Here's the situation at the State University
campi:

The little airport at UC Davis is owned by the U. It's been under
some pressure recently, but there are other small strips nearby
UC Santa Cruz: closest public airport is Watsonville -- not so close.
UC Berkeley: Oakland
UCLA: Santa Monica and Van Nuys
UC Riverside: Riverside
UC Santa Barbara: Santa Barbara is adjacent to campus
UC Irvine: John Wayne
UC San Diego: Lindbergh, but I don't think it's particularly
GA-friendly. GA airports are out a ways.
UC Merced: When it opens next year will have not only Merced, but
ex-Castle airbase (A****er) with its enormous runways.

California State University has 23 campi. The only one I'm not sure
about having a convenient GA airport is San Marcos, because I've
mislaid my LA sectional.

Don

"G.R. Patterson III" wrote in message ...

New Brunswick, NJ, for one. Rutgers is there. Princeton also has no
municipal airport, though there is a privately owned one there. The
citizenry would love to get rid of that one, too.

And the while it is called "Princeton" it isn't really that close to Princeton
(nor is the Princeton Junction NE Corridor station).

College Park (MD) has an airport, but you can't fly there.

A psycology teacher that I had at one time made us argue the
counterpoint of anything that we felt strongly for/against. It really
made me see the other side and come up with better arguments to
support my case. I think that it may be time to figure out those
arguments.

He was an excellent teacher. However, for the time-being I'd appreciate it
if you would use these same logical skills and argue as vociferously on MY
side of this argument!

I will be there fighting, if need be. Don't get me wrong, I'd like to
see it stay. I guess that my point is that if we cannot come up with
any better arguments that what we have discussed, it will be lights
out. It would be REALLY benefitial, as another poster stated, if a
local, or incoming business would use the airport more. As I
understand it, without PS Air, even the charters are very limited.

I do have a friend that USED to manage the Wal-Mart down there. He
said that they would regularly "pop in" down there as they were flying
around. Don't know haw many ops they do, but that would be a better
argument than the cemetary thing.

IT may be, if iowa City would pull it's head out of their ass's, the
new convention center slated to be in Coralville could help your
cause. If you do not become pro-active though, as a city, all of this
traffic will go to Cedar Rapids because of the issues that I earlier
discussed.

I'll let you know what I find out from one of the CR Airport
comissioners next time I see him.

Later (have fun at the party),
Jeff

local, or incoming business would use the airport more. As I
understand it, without PS Air, even the charters are very limited.

Actually, by my uneducated guess (I only know what I can see on the ramp),
it seems that Jet Air has generated MORE charter business. But that's
really hard for me to gauge.

IT may be, if iowa City would pull it's head out of their ass's, the
new convention center slated to be in Coralville could help your
cause.

Augh! Don't even get me started on THAT boondoggle. I can't believe that
Coralville is following Iowa City's absurd lead by using taxpayer money to
fund another hotel in the area!

Dammit, if there was a real need for another hotel in the area, doncha think
that Sheraton/Holiday/Ramada/Embassy/Super/Motel 6 would be standing in line
to build it?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"