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IFR logging question - is this legal?



 
 
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  #11  
Old June 30th 06, 11:54 PM posted to rec.aviation.ifr,rec.aviation.misc
Ron Natalie
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Posts: 1,175
Default IFR logging question - is this legal?

Dane Spearing wrote:
In article .com,
Robert M. Gary wrote:
Brad wrote:
The
regs make no distinction between VMC versus IMC or IFR versus VFR for
the purposes of logging time.

The safety pilot cannot log time in IMC.


Unless the pilot who is manipulating the controls is not instrument rated,
in which case the "safety pilot" must be PIC (and had better be
instrument rated and on an active IFR flight plan).


Safety pilots do not exist in IMC. Safety pilots are needed only for
simulated IFR. Simulated IFR (along with some part 135/121 os) are the
rules under which "more than one pilot is required." Flying IFR in
actual only requires one pilot.
  #12  
Old July 1st 06, 12:59 AM posted to rec.aviation.ifr,rec.aviation.misc
Robert M. Gary
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Posts: 2,767
Default IFR logging question - is this legal?


Dane Spearing wrote:
Unless the pilot who is manipulating the controls is not instrument rated,
in which case the "safety pilot" must be PIC (and had better be
instrument rated and on an active IFR flight plan).

-- Dane


No, once the flight is in IMC there is no need for a safety pilot and
therefor the flight does not need 2 pilots.

-Robert, CFII

  #13  
Old July 1st 06, 01:00 AM posted to rec.aviation.ifr,rec.aviation.misc
Robert M. Gary
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Default IFR logging question - is this legal?


Dave S wrote:
Robert M. Gary wrote:
IF the safety pilot is the one who has the instrument rating, he most
certainly can.. because he IS the PIC.


There is no such provision under 61.51(e). You do not get to log PIC
just because you are Pilot In Command.

-Robert, CFII

  #14  
Old July 1st 06, 01:15 AM posted to rec.aviation.ifr,rec.aviation.misc
Brad[_1_]
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Posts: 76
Default IFR logging question - is this legal?


Robert M. Gary wrote:
Brad wrote:
They can't BOTH log PIC time.


Actually they can if P1 is under the hood and flying and P2 is acting
as PIC.

-Robert, CFII


Read my original reply. I already addressed that.

  #15  
Old July 1st 06, 02:47 AM posted to rec.aviation.ifr,rec.aviation.misc
Dave S
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Posts: 406
Default IFR logging question - is this legal?

Robert M. Gary wrote:
Dave S wrote:

Robert M. Gary wrote:
IF the safety pilot is the one who has the instrument rating, he most
certainly can.. because he IS the PIC.



There is no such provision under 61.51(e). You do not get to log PIC
just because you are Pilot In Command.

-Robert, CFII


But he IS a required crewmember. He's required to be there to operate
under the IFR clearance.

Dave
  #16  
Old July 1st 06, 04:17 AM posted to rec.aviation.ifr,rec.aviation.misc
Robert M. Gary
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Posts: 2,767
Default IFR logging question - is this legal?


Dave S wrote:
But he IS a required crewmember. He's required to be there to operate
under the IFR clearance.


Yes, but the flying pilot is not required to be there. There is nothing
in the FARs that says the flying pilot must be there. However, the FARs
do require a second crew member when the flying pilot is under the hood
in VMC.

-Robert, CFII

  #17  
Old July 1st 06, 04:21 AM posted to rec.aviation.ifr,rec.aviation.misc
Robert M. Gary
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Posts: 2,767
Default IFR logging question - is this legal?


Dave S wrote:
But he IS a required crewmember. He's required to be there to operate
under the IFR clearance.


The operation you decribed does not require more than one pilot by
regulation. Flying under the hood in VMC requires more than one pilot
by regulation. Once you don't need the hood, you don't need more than
one pilot.

61.51(e)(1)
(iii) Except for a recreational pilot, is acting as pilot in command of
an^M
aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type^M
certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight
is^M
conducted.^M


-Robert, CFII

  #18  
Old July 1st 06, 04:41 AM posted to rec.aviation.ifr,rec.aviation.misc
Mark Hansen
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Posts: 420
Default IFR logging question - is this legal?

On 06/30/06 13:17, Robert M. Gary wrote:
Brad wrote:
They can't BOTH log PIC time.


Actually they can if P1 is under the hood and flying and P2 is acting
as PIC.


Oops, I don't think that's true. This was discussed here at length about
two months ago. The issue is that "acting as PIC" doesn't give a person
the right to "log PIC".

When reading the regs, I thought the pilot not flying would be able to
log PIC as a result of 61.51 (c) (e) (1) (iii). However, the overwhelming
consensus was that the specific reg referred to situations in which
the pilot not flying was a required flight crew member based on the
type certificate, and not because the pilot flying was under the hood
and not instrument rated.

The pilot flying certainly can log PIC as sole manipulator of the
controls (provided he is certificated for the class/category of
aircraft).

The pilot not flying would be able to log PIC if he was a CFI, but
that was not the case presented by the OP.


-Robert, CFII




--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
Cal Aggie Flying Farmers
Sacramento, CA
  #19  
Old July 1st 06, 04:50 AM posted to rec.aviation.ifr,rec.aviation.misc
Mark Hansen
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Posts: 420
Default IFR logging question - is this legal?

On 06/30/06 15:44, Jose wrote:
Perhaps I am not sufficiently clarifying the objective he it is to
enable P1 to fly the (N-reg) plane and log it, under actual IFR,
without P2 being an instructor.

If it is legal, what could P1 log it as? Surely he can't log
instrument time unless P2 is a CFII?


In the United States, it is legal.

P1 (non instrument rated but otherwise current)
P2 (instrument rated and current)

To BE PIC, one must be current and rated for the aircraft and the
conditions.


.... just aircraft - not conditions. If the pilot flying is sole manipulator
of the controls of an aircraft in which he is rated (category/class), then
he can log PIC. It doesn't matter what the weather conditions are (VMC/IMC/
Day/Night, etc.)


To LOG PIC it is not necessary to BE PIC. One can BE PIC
without being able to LOG PIC.

Under the conditions noted (IMC, IFR), P1 cannot BE PIC. P2 can be PIC.
Therefore, P2 must be PIC to make the flight legal. This (by itself)
does not allow him to log PIC time.

P2, as sole manipulator, can log PIC time, even though he is not PIC.


All correct.


==

Now change the conditions slightly. VMC, IFR. P1 still cannot BE PIC.
P2 is required to be PIC. If P1 (sole manipulator) is not wearing a
hood, then no safety pilot is required, so P2 is not a required crew
member. If P1 is under the hood, then a safety pilot is required. I am
not clear on whether this is sufficient (as in VMC, VFR) to allow both
to log PIC, since the flight COULD NOT TAKE PLACE (legally) without P2's
instrument rating, whereas the VMC, VFR flight COULD take place without
P2's instrument rating. I'm inclined to think that both pilots could
log PIC time in this case, and only P2 could BE PIC.


This is the argument I made some time ago, and two or three folks
convinced me that this doesn't cause a second crew member requirement.

I still think it does, though...


VMC, VFR, with nobody under the hood - No safety pilot is required. The
sole manipulator gets to log PIC time. Either pilot may BE PIC, but
being PIC does not (by itself) allow one to log PIC time.

VMC, VFR, with P1 under the hood. P2, the safety pilot, is a required
crewmember. P1 (rated for the aircraft and conditions) MAY be PIC, but
P2 may also be PIC. Treating these conditions separately:

...if P2 is PIC, he can also LOG PIC time as "pilot in command where
more than one pilot is required". (this is specifically allowed in the
regs and the "letters of clarification"). P1 (sole manipulator) may
also log PIC time, so two pilots get to log PIC time even though only
one is actually the PIC.

...if P2 is NOT PIC, then P1 MUST be PIC. He may log PIC time as sole
manipulator, and also as "pilot in command where more than one pilot is
required". (he doesn't get double hours though. In this case, P2
may choose to log SIC time, as a required crewmember. This is what I do
(it's my only SIC time; although I have no interest in flying commercial
jets, I have heard that those hiring like to see SIC time as it shows
crew management experience).

IMC, VFR. This is an illegal flight, and nobody should log anything.

Jose




--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
Cal Aggie Flying Farmers
Sacramento, CA
  #20  
Old July 1st 06, 05:03 AM posted to rec.aviation.ifr,rec.aviation.misc
Jose[_1_]
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Posts: 1,632
Default IFR logging question - is this legal?

Yes, but the flying pilot is not required to be there. There is nothing
in the FARs that says the flying pilot must be there. However, the FARs
do require a second crew member when the flying pilot is under the hood
in VMC.


Well, actually the regs don't require the hood to be there either.
Strict logic says that the pilot flying under the hood is not required,
so the flight actually only requires one pilot. However, the FAA
=interprets= the regs as requiring two pilots in order to provide a
venue for instrument training. There is no reason, given this
interpretation, that they can't also interpret it the same way for IMC
training.

Whether they do or not is a legitimate question.

Jose
--
The monkey turns the crank and thinks he's making the music.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.
 




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