soaring into the future

While a winch may be a "win-win-win-win" scenario, as a
practical matter it is difficult to implement at many sites in the US.

Marc-

Some of the members in our club are looking at winch launching. I
suspect that they will come to the same conclusions. "Cheap" tows that
a winch offer is really a matter of perspective.

We did some double towing a few years ago and got quite good at it.
Typical double tows were for 15+ mile treks to the mountains to
connect with the lift. Our double tow fee structure made it
"economical" to do and we were rewarded with long flights and awesome
forays into the Cascade Mountains.

The winch.................well, it ain't gonna do it.

Brad

On Dec 27, 5:57 pm, wrote:
Great stuff Kirk. I agree with nearly every point you make. I've
personally suffered under the "old codger" effect, have heard the
howls of "XC is dangerous", and have spent some considerable hours
clowning around on expensive bicycles too.

But I think that we DO have to address the hardware side of things in
terms of costs. Those cycling clowns are riding $3000 bikes not
$30000 bikes. The hang and paraglider ships dont necessarily offer
the safety or performance of a sailplane. The low cost gliders that
exist are the vintage neglected birds that can be bought for used car
prices.

Guys like the Cherokee Kid, Tony on this forum, ARE the future of this
sport. He's flying a nearly antique glider cross country nearly every
time he launches. He can do this because his glider and trailer cost
about what a typical college kid could spend on a decent used car. I
hate to think of all the people out there who would love to do what
he's doing but don't have a glider available to them.

And on the topic of launch methods... I believe the future of the
sport is in electric self launch for single seaters and maybe winch
for training and event centers. But that is really another topic.

MM

MM

Partnerships, m'boy, partnerships.

Been in four over the years, and it's always been a rewarding
experience. I expect to be in a couple more in the next year or so.

Frank Whiteley

Frank Whiteley wrote:
Partnerships, m'boy, partnerships.

Been in four over the years, and it's always been a rewarding
experience. I expect to be in a couple more in the next year or so.

10 years ago I was able afford a new glider on my own. 5 years ago I
was able to buy a new glider with a partner. Now, I'll consider myself
lucky to be able to get a decent 20 year old glider with a partner. I
don't even want to think about the situation 5 years from now...

Marc

Marc....................your future lies in dogs.

My wife quit her Microsoft job a few years ago and we started a custom
dog boarding business................she was a product manager at
MS.................now she's feeds dogs and makes more than she did a
MS!

I'm the official pooper-scooper and get to fly over 120 hours a year!

Brad

Brad wrote:
Marc....................your future lies in dogs.

My wife quit her Microsoft job a few years ago and we started a custom
dog boarding business................she was a product manager at
MS.................now she's feeds dogs and makes more than she did a
MS!

I'm the official pooper-scooper and get to fly over 120 hours a year!

Brad

LOL 8^)

"Brad" wrote in message
...
While a winch may be a "win-win-win-win" scenario, as a
practical matter it is difficult to implement at many sites in the US.

Marc-

Some of the members in our club are looking at winch launching. I
suspect that they will come to the same conclusions. "Cheap" tows that
a winch offer is really a matter of perspective.

We did some double towing a few years ago and got quite good at it.
Typical double tows were for 15+ mile treks to the mountains to
connect with the lift. Our double tow fee structure made it
"economical" to do and we were rewarded with long flights and awesome
forays into the Cascade Mountains.

The winch.................well, it ain't gonna do it.

Brad

No one says winches will totally replace aero tows which will always have a
place in the situation you describe. There are places where any soaring is
miles away from the airfield. Only an aero tow will get you there.

But your situation won't save the sport, nor is it really typical. Most
sites have local soaring - having been located there because of that. It is
really not difficult to soar away from a winch launch. When attempting to
soar, my lifetime average is better than 80%. If you don't happen to
connect with lift, another launch is cheap and quick.

It can be difficult to implement winch launch at sites selected for aero tow
and that is a challenge. But it's a challenge we have to meet and win.
Our sport may well depend on it.

Aero tow costs are increasing dramatically. You have to ask if those "long
tow" site will be there much longer.

Bill Daniels

Bill,

You're absolutley right.
The land situation for locating a really "practical" winch is the key
issue.
In fact, there is a guy in our club that is on a fact-finding mission
on winch towing in the USA. I suspect he has gotten a lot of really
good info recently. My angle on this is: OK, I like the
winch................but it has to be practical to make it truly
successful. I.E. locate it where there is a likelyhood of lift and get
you there high enough to safely use it.

Got an interesting place close to where I live. Might make an
interesting study to see just what kind of hoops one must jump
through........not only with the club members, but also in dealing
with the local government and "landowners" to develop a chunk of arid
and dry ridgetop land into a local gliderjockey hangout. There's no
doubt about it........it would create attention!

Brad


On Dec 27, 6:52*pm, "Bill Daniels" bildan@comcast-dot-net wrote:
"Brad" wrote in message

...





While a winch may be a "win-win-win-win" scenario, as a
practical matter it is difficult to implement at many sites in the US.

Marc-

Some of the members in our club are looking at winch launching. I
suspect that they will come to the same conclusions. "Cheap" tows that
a winch offer is really a matter of perspective.

We did some double towing a few years ago and got quite good at it.
Typical double tows were for 15+ mile treks to the mountains to
connect with the lift. Our double tow fee structure made it
"economical" to do and we were rewarded with long flights and awesome
forays into the Cascade Mountains.

The winch.................well, it ain't gonna do it.

Brad

No one says winches will totally replace aero tows which will always have a
place in the situation you describe. *There are places where any soaring is
miles away from the airfield. *Only an aero tow will get you there.

But your situation won't save the sport, nor is it really typical. *Most
sites have local soaring - having been located there because of that. *It is
really not difficult to soar away from a winch launch. *When attempting to
soar, my lifetime average is better than 80%. *If you don't happen to
connect with lift, another launch is cheap and quick.

It can be difficult to implement winch launch at sites selected for aero tow
and that is a challenge. * But it's a challenge we have to meet and win.
Our sport may well depend on it.

Aero tow costs are increasing dramatically. *You have to ask if those "long
tow" site will be there much longer.

Bill Daniels- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

On Dec 27, 9:07 pm, Brad wrote:
Bill,

You're absolutley right.
The land situation for locating a really "practical" winch is the key
issue.
In fact, there is a guy in our club that is on a fact-finding mission
on winch towing in the USA. I suspect he has gotten a lot of really
good info recently. My angle on this is: OK, I like the
winch................but it has to be practical to make it truly
successful. I.E. locate it where there is a likelyhood of lift and get
you there high enough to safely use it.

Got an interesting place close to where I live. Might make an
interesting study to see just what kind of hoops one must jump
through........not only with the club members, but also in dealing
with the local government and "landowners" to develop a chunk of arid
and dry ridgetop land into a local gliderjockey hangout. There's no
doubt about it........it would create attention!

Brad

On Dec 27, 6:52 pm, "Bill Daniels" bildan@comcast-dot-net wrote:

"Brad" wrote in message

...

While a winch may be a "win-win-win-win" scenario, as a
practical matter it is difficult to implement at many sites in the US.

Marc-

Some of the members in our club are looking at winch launching. I
suspect that they will come to the same conclusions. "Cheap" tows that
a winch offer is really a matter of perspective.

We did some double towing a few years ago and got quite good at it.
Typical double tows were for 15+ mile treks to the mountains to
connect with the lift. Our double tow fee structure made it
"economical" to do and we were rewarded with long flights and awesome
forays into the Cascade Mountains.

The winch.................well, it ain't gonna do it.

Brad

No one says winches will totally replace aero tows which will always have a
place in the situation you describe. There are places where any soaring is
miles away from the airfield. Only an aero tow will get you there.

But your situation won't save the sport, nor is it really typical. Most
sites have local soaring - having been located there because of that. It is
really not difficult to soar away from a winch launch. When attempting to
soar, my lifetime average is better than 80%. If you don't happen to
connect with lift, another launch is cheap and quick.

It can be difficult to implement winch launch at sites selected for aero tow
and that is a challenge. But it's a challenge we have to meet and win.
Our sport may well depend on it.

Aero tow costs are increasing dramatically. You have to ask if those "long
tow" site will be there much longer.

Bill Daniels- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Negotiate a landing spot at the bottom of the ridge also if you locate
at the top. Wasn't there an alternate ridge top site at Wenatchee
years ago? Is it still accessible?

Ridge sites will require the least space, be they at the top or bottom
of the ridge. A ridge doesn't have to be high, just oriented to the
prevailing winds. I was in Hood River, Oregon, recently. The folks
at NW Skysports take the ridge to the wave. Interesting site.

Frank Whiteley

On Dec 27, 8:01 pm, Marc Ramsey wrote:
Frank Whiteley wrote:
Partnerships, m'boy, partnerships.

Been in four over the years, and it's always been a rewarding
experience. I expect to be in a couple more in the next year or so.

10 years ago I was able afford a new glider on my own. 5 years ago I
was able to buy a new glider with a partner. Now, I'll consider myself
lucky to be able to get a decent 20 year old glider with a partner. I
don't even want to think about the situation 5 years from now...

Marc

I was usually able to afford a better glider earlier in my soaring
life with partners, or have other options, like multiple gliders
available. So if one was down for maintenance, annual, or in use by a
partner, I still had a ride most times for the entire day when I
wanted. I miscounted, there have been five partnerships.

Frank

On Dec 28, 12:37*am, Marc Ramsey wrote:
Dan G wrote:
A club which has bought a Skylaunch recently might have about 100
members paying £300 a year each and about £7 a winch launch, plus
around £25 an hour glider hire. An aerotow, btw, costs about £25 to
2,000'. What are US club membership numbers and costs like?

Our fees are similar ($600/year, $30/2000' tow, $20/flight), we have
fewer members (around 60, I believe), but the economics are quite
different. *We operate from a public airport, and have to rent a hangar
for the tow plane, along with space for glider tie downs and a club
house. *I don't know the exact figure, but I suspect airport rent alone
is as much as $1500/month.

Our site rent is three times yours, plus we pay staff costs (one full
time employee and a couple of part-timers both instructors and in the
office) and of course have costs on tow planes (two) as well. I think
there's two big differences, 1) you charge half the price per aerotow
we do (though our avgas is around $8 a gallon) and if $20/flight is
$20 for one hour, again we charge about double, and 2) we winch, doing
about 5,000 launches a year, with big profit on each one.

There might also be a third - we heavily promote "trial flights",
which cost about $150 and obviously have high margins. We aim for
something like 150 trial flights a year. Is there a US equivalent?

The tow plane and airport fees eat the majority of the fees collected.
A winch would be a great revenue generator and cut or even eliminate the
need for the tow plane. *However, it would require a big pile of money
(for us) up front, intensive training of instructors and members, cause
grumbling from the tow pilot members and those who like to tow miles in
search of better conditions, and we'd be likely be forced to move to a
location farther out from the population centers, resulting in a loss of
membership. *While a winch may be a "win-win-win-win" scenario, as a
practical matter it is difficult to implement at many sites in the US.

There's several ways of looking at this. Does you club do much ab
intio training or is it mainly established pilots? We have lots of
trainees at any one time (few become long-term members, there's a high
turnover), and we train them entirely on the winch. To go aerotow solo
they take a tow or two after solo.

You can also soar off the winch in the right conditions, but I find it
becomes hard once cloud base get to around 5,000' AGL. In Britain such
days are exceptional so I have a winch launch/soar rate of 93% :-).
I'm guessing your cloud bases are much higher.

Not sure how you'd get the pilot experience and competence for winch
launching though. Judging by the Winch Fest video, there's still a lot
of ground to cover to get to BGA safety standards, which have almost
eliminated winch launching accidents.


Dan