When to acknowledge ATC

wrote:
By regulation, Air Force pilots read back all altimeter settings. I
think its a good practice and continue to do so although not required
by civil regs. The only time I don't is when ATC blanket broadcasts a
new setting to all airplanes on freq.


I agree and do that also ... even though I never benefited from Air
Force training. :-)


Matt

A Guy Called Tyketto wrote:

If ATC tells you to remain outside you have to remain outside, whay
requires you to read it back?


Because if you don't read it back, they have no way to know
that you have acknowledged their call to you.

Believe me, if ATC gives me an instruction and unless I respond to
the contrary they assume that I've heard and will comply. The sole
exception to this is runway hold-short/crossing restrictions.


Where's the requirement for radar contact? Where's the requirement for a
readback?


For class C, they will always tell you 'radar contact
location, say altitude'

No they won't. Not in any stretch. They'll only tell you radar
contact if you are indeed in radar contact. This usually happens
after a transponder code is issued etc.... None of this has anything
to do with your operating in class C airspace.

Class B, they'll tell you 'radar contact
location, cleared through/into xxx Class B airspace' along with an
altimeter setting for the major airport in their area.

Again, RADAR CONTACT is a different concept from either the clearance
or the altimeter setting. The altimeter setting will be that of what
they are using (which may or may not be associated with an airport).

That is a
requirement for ATC to give you when entering Class B or C airspace.
See the 7110.65, sections 5-3-1 through 5-3-6. There's the requirement.
If they tell you to remain outside a given airspace, you had best
readback that you are remaining outside that airspace. 7-9-2 gives
leeway for the readback.

No, those sections don't have anything to do with entering airspace.
This is again a fundamental issue you seem to fail to want to
understand. Radar service is a service. The airspace indicates
where you might expect to find it, but the authorization to operate
in any given airspace is NOT dependent on RADAR SERVICES being offered.
I've operated out of the primary airport of a CLASS B airspace with
NO RADAR SERVICE POSSIBLE (my transponder was out and their primary
radar was out at the same time).

A Guy Called Tyketto wrote:
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Ron Natalie wrote:

A Guy Called Tyketto wrote:


No clearance is required.


For Class C airspace, 2-way communication is the clearance into
that airspace. No, ATC doesn't ahve to 'clear' you into it, but the
communication is the clearance as is.


No clearance is required. Do you know what CLEARANCE means?


I never said that they will *CLEAR* you into Class C airspace;
but that the 2-way communication *IS* the clearance. Class B is another
story.

Again I state, you don't seem to understand what a clearance is.
No clearance is required and none is given in a class C. 2 Way
communication is NEVER a clearance.


There's your clearance through/into Class C. Not that ATC will
*CLEAR* you, but if they respond to your call, and that Approach
controller is operating Class C airspace, their call back to you *IS*
your clearance into or through that Class C airspace. Yes, They will
have you at Radar contact after you squawk the xpdr setting, but that
doesn't require any readback. But you asked about clearance, so there
you have it.

No readbacks here are required at all and no clearance is involved.
of BLD, cleared into
Class Bravo Airspace, maintain VFR at or below 8500, Las Vegas
altimeter xx.xx

You then are cleared into Class B.

Read the documents yourself, if you don't believe me. Better
yet, call the ATC when they chastise you for not reading back anything that
tells you to remain outside of a given airspace for a reason.

I have read the documents, I know what they say. RADAR CONTACT and all
that ather crap, readbacks, and 90% of your other assertions have
nothing to do with authorization to operate in any airspace. The
only restriction is two way comms for class C and D and a clearance
for B. The rest, while it is frequently coincident with operation in
these airspaces are NOT PART OF ANY ATC OR PILOT REQUIREMENT.

Happy Dog wrote:

If you were outside Class B, bull****. That area, above 1000' is class B
airspace or a control zone. Nothing but the word "cleared" is a clearance.
It may have happened. But you were in violation because the controller,
whatever he meant, didn't clear you into Class B.

Control Zones haven't existed in a decade.

Happy Dog wrote:

Funny that. I flew from Toronto to NYC around that time. Maybe the same
day. I was astounded at the rate of change in settings. Never seen that
happen before.

Maybe you were one of the airline pilots I heard commenting on it.

--
Peter


















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Icebound wrote:

"Roger" is definitely more professional than "Thanks". Now THAT is truly a
waste of bandwidth. Any "aviation-communication" text that I have ever
read, discourages the use of "thanks" or "thank you" etc... as being totally
redundant and useless...

There's the text and then there is the reality, a difference that someone
who only reads about aviation most likely misses. A small thank you is not
redundant and useless, especially if the controller really did do something
that made your flying just a bit easier. After all, we are still civilized
human beings.

For example, when I am approaching my class C airport from the opposite end
of the active runway, I will often request a straight-in to the opposite
runway (winds depending). A move like this will shave off perhaps ten
minutes of vectors and after a long flight, this might mean the difference
between a properly emptied bladder and an improperly emptied bladder.

Often times ATC will go out of their way to accommodate this request,
including slowing up an aircraft being vectored for an approach to the
active runway. Keep in mind that ATC has absolutely no obligation to do
this and a "thank you" from me hopefully demonstrates to him/her that
his/her efforts were appreciated.

Conversely, I have been thanked many times by ATC after doing something
that made their work a little easier, such as 360s, S-turns, not
complaining when being vectored through the localizer to join on the other
side, or going around. I certainly like to hear those words.


--
Peter

















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"Ron Natalie"
A Guy Called Tyketto wrote:

If ATC tells you to remain outside you have to remain outside, whay
requires you to read it back?

Because if you don't read it back, they have no way to know
that you have acknowledged their call to you.

Believe me, if ATC gives me an instruction and unless I respond to
the contrary they assume that I've heard and will comply. The sole
exception to this is runway hold-short/crossing restrictions.

I assume you mean that you only acknowledge the transmission. Or are you
saying that an instruction to change heading, climb, descend etc. won't
provoke a followup response of you don't respond? Traffic alerts? I hear
ATC say the call sign and their facility name all the time to pilots who
don't respond to transmissions quire frequently.


Where's the requirement for radar contact? Where's the requirement for a
readback?

Class B, they'll tell you 'radar contact
location, cleared through/into xxx Class B airspace' along with an
altimeter setting for the major airport in their area.

Again, RADAR CONTACT is a different concept from either the clearance
or the altimeter setting. The altimeter setting will be that of what
they are using (which may or may not be associated with an airport).

Of course. What's the "major airport" in NYC airspace?

That is a
requirement for ATC to give you when entering Class B or C airspace.
See the 7110.65, sections 5-3-1 through 5-3-6. There's the requirement.
If they tell you to remain outside a given airspace, you had best
readback that you are remaining outside that airspace. 7-9-2 gives
leeway for the readback.

No, those sections don't have anything to do with entering airspace.
This is again a fundamental issue you seem to fail to want to understand.
Radar service is a service. The airspace indicates
where you might expect to find it, but the authorization to operate
in any given airspace is NOT dependent on RADAR SERVICES being offered.
I've operated out of the primary airport of a CLASS B airspace with
NO RADAR SERVICE POSSIBLE (my transponder was out and their primary radar
was out at the same time).

Correct, unless otherwise indicated. Some control zones require Mode C.

moo

"Ron Natalie"

If you were outside Class B, bull****. That area, above 1000' is class B
airspace or a control zone. Nothing but the word "cleared" is a
clearance. It may have happened. But you were in violation because the
controller, whatever he meant, didn't clear you into Class B.

Control Zones haven't existed in a decade.

Oops! I'm from Canada. We still have them.

moo

"Happy Dog" wrote in message
. ..

Correct, unless otherwise indicated. Some control zones require Mode C.


We don't have control zones in the US, haven't had them for almost twelve
years now. When we did have them none of them required Mode C.

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in
Correct, unless otherwise indicated. Some control zones require Mode C.

We don't have control zones in the US, haven't had them for almost twelve
years now. When we did have them none of them required Mode C.

As I said in a previous post, I'm from Canada. We have them and some
require Mode C.

moo