Flying under Class B

One inch under the floor is okay. The area under class B is often
constricted, so it can help to get flight following. Whether ATC has a right
to do it or not, controllers regularly assign altitudes to VFR traffic for
whatever reasons of their own.

"C J Campbell" wrote in message
...

One inch under the floor is okay. The area under class B is often
constricted, so it can help to get flight following. Whether ATC has a
right
to do it or not, controllers regularly assign altitudes to VFR traffic for
whatever reasons of their own.


Yup, and receiving an altitude assignment from a controller that hasn't the
authority to issue it is an indication that you're not working with a sharp
troop.

OtisWinslow wrote:

There can be a lot of VFR traffic cruising around under the B space. It's
a good idea to just talk to ATC and get their help.

I've only dealt with Orlando and New York. New York would rather not deal with you
most of the time. Even when they politely acknowledge your presence, they are usually
too busy to advise you about other traffic. One controller stated at a Wings seminar
years ago that most of the time he has the radar set to block low-level VFR returns
'cause they clutter the screen too much. As he put it "The area around the Solberg
VOR looks like a beehive. You're all gonna crash and I don't wanna see it."

George Patterson
If a man gets into a fight 3,000 miles away from home, he *had* to have
been looking for it.

In article . net,
"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote:

"C J Campbell" wrote in message
...

One inch under the floor is okay. The area under class B is often
constricted, so it can help to get flight following. Whether ATC has a
right
to do it or not, controllers regularly assign altitudes to VFR traffic for
whatever reasons of their own.


Yup, and receiving an altitude assignment from a controller that hasn't the
authority to issue it is an indication that you're not working with a sharp
troop.

This is one of my pet peeves about the folks at NY Tracon. They've got
this strange habit of telling VFR flights inbound to HPN to "descend to
pattern altitude". It used to only happen to me once in a while, but
lately it seems to have become SOP.

It's more than just a polite suggestion, too. I've had controllers tell
me that I'm not descending fast enough, and that they "need me" to
descend. I once said "unable" when a controller tried to do this to me
15 miles out at night and ended up with an invitation to call them when
I got on the ground. Said phone call resulted in a verbal reaming out
by the supervisor for refusing to follow instructions.

A written complaint from me to the tracon resulted in a letter informing
me that I must obey all controller's instructions.

"Roy Smith" wrote in message
...

Yup, and receiving an altitude assignment from a controller that hasn't
the
authority to issue it is an indication that you're not working with a
sharp
troop.


This is one of my pet peeves about the folks at NY Tracon. They've got
this strange habit of telling VFR flights inbound to HPN to "descend to
pattern altitude". It used to only happen to me once in a while, but
lately it seems to have become SOP.

It's more than just a polite suggestion, too. I've had controllers tell
me that I'm not descending fast enough, and that they "need me" to
descend.


Again, a sign that you're not working with a sharp troop.



I once said "unable" when a controller tried to do this to me
15 miles out at night and ended up with an invitation to call them when
I got on the ground. Said phone call resulted in a verbal reaming out
by the supervisor for refusing to follow instructions.


Had it been me it would have been the supervisor that would have received
the verbal reaming out.



A written complaint from me to the tracon resulted in a letter informing
me that I must obey all controller's instructions.


But not supported by any documentation, of course.

Roy Smith ) wrote:

It's more than just a polite suggestion, too. I've had controllers tell
me that I'm not descending fast enough, and that they "need me" to
descend. I once said "unable" when a controller tried to do this to me
15 miles out at night and ended up with an invitation to call them when
I got on the ground. Said phone call resulted in a verbal reaming out
by the supervisor for refusing to follow instructions.

A written complaint from me to the tracon resulted in a letter informing
me that I must obey all controller's instructions.

Shoulda had the supervisor tell you what section of the Federal Aviation
Regulation supports his assertion that ATC control VFR aircraft outside
of B or C airspace.

--
Peter

I haven't flown around NY. I have dealt with Tampa and Miami .. both of whom
were helpful.


"G.R. Patterson III" wrote in message
...


OtisWinslow wrote:

There can be a lot of VFR traffic cruising around under the B space. It's
a good idea to just talk to ATC and get their help.

I've only dealt with Orlando and New York. New York would rather not deal
with you
most of the time. Even when they politely acknowledge your presence, they
are usually
too busy to advise you about other traffic. One controller stated at a
Wings seminar
years ago that most of the time he has the radar set to block low-level
VFR returns
'cause they clutter the screen too much. As he put it "The area around the
Solberg
VOR looks like a beehive. You're all gonna crash and I don't wanna see
it."

George Patterson
If a man gets into a fight 3,000 miles away from home, he *had* to
have
been looking for it.

"G.R. Patterson III" wrote in message ...
PaulaJay1 wrote:

What is the minimum legal distance (altitude) to fly VFR under a Class B
"wedding cake"?

Whatever the floor is.

CLE has a 1900 ft floor at the north side by Lake Erie and I
have flown at 1800 to go around CLE.

You could fly it at 1900. Hit a bump and go to 1901, however, you're illegal, but the
controller won't know it. The typical mode-C transponder reports altitude in 100'
increments and changes readings at about the 50' level; that is, at 1949', your
transponder should report 1900' and at 1950' it should report 2000'.

Dunno about you, but my encoder isn't that accurate. Still, it won't be precise
enough to get me busted at 1' over the floor.

Yup, legal distance is the floor. But my method to handle it is to
fly 200 feet below the floor if I can do that safely. Since the
transponders report in 100 foot intervals, and there may be error in
either the transponder or the ATC side of the reporting system, this
keeps me out of ATC's concern for busting the Bravo. (I got this from
an instructor of mine.) This also allows for errors (mine or others)
in flying level, or setting the altimeter too.

That being said, I'll scrap the floor with my tail if I have to for
safety & ground clearance, or ask for Bravo clearance (but never get
it near here). If ATC calls traffic and gives me an altitude or
heading to take, I'll take it and debate the issue later if necessary.

I'm out of Leesburg VA under the Wash DC ADIZ, so under Bravo space
I'm ALWAYS talking to ATC. The rules are a little different here, but
I do appreciate the effective result of flight following it gives me.

I do wish they'd call out type as well as traffic though. Watching
for a C172 is a little different from watching for a business jet or
turbo prop. I kept looking for the other "Cessna" going into Leesburg
last weekend and not finding him till I figured out that he was much
much faster, with a wider approach and pattern than the C172M I was
flying.

-Malcolm Teas

The controller has the authority to arbitrarily decide he does not have
the ability to provide VFR services due to workload constraints.

Dave

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
"Dave S" wrote in message
link.net...

It doesn't vary at all. If you're outside of the Class B airspace ATC
has no authority to assign altitudes to VFR aircraft.

Nor any obligation to continue radar services to said VFR aircraft.



Actually, there is.


FAA Order 7110.65P Air Traffic Control

Chapter 2. General Control

Section 1. General

2-1-1. ATC SERVICE

The primary purpose of the ATC system is to prevent a collision
between aircraft operating in the system and to organize and expedite the
flow of traffic. In addition to its primary function, the ATC system has the
capability to provide (with certain limitations) additional services. The
ability to provide additional services is limited by many factors, such as
the volume of traffic, frequency congestion, quality of radar, controller
workload, higher priority duties, and the pure physical inability to scan
and detect those situations that fall in this category. It is recognized
that these services cannot be provided in cases in which the provision of
services is precluded by the above factors. Consistent with the
aforementioned conditions, controllers shall provide additional service
procedures to the extent permitted by higher priority duties and other
circumstances. The provision of additional services is not optional on the
part of the controller, but rather is required when the work situation
permits. Provide air traffic control service in accordance with the
procedures and minima in this order except when:

a. A deviation is necessary to conform with ICAO Documents, National
Rules of the Air, or special agreements where the U.S. provides air traffic
control service in airspace outside the U.S. and its possessions or:

NOTE-
Pilots are required to abide by CFRs or other applicable regulations
regardless of the application of any procedure or minima in this order.

b. Other procedures/minima are prescribed in a letter of agreement,
FAA directive, or a military document, or:

NOTE-
These procedures may include altitude reservations, air refueling,
fighter interceptor operations, law enforcement, etc.

REFERENCE-
FAAO 7110.65, Procedural Letters of Agreement, Para 1-1-8.

c. A deviation is necessary to assist an aircraft when an emergency
has been declared.

REFERENCE-
FAAO 7110.65, Safety Alert, Para 2-1-6.
FAAO 7110.65, Emergencies, Chapter 10.
FAAO 7110.65, Merging Target Procedures, Para 5-1-8.

OtisWinslow wrote:

I haven't flown around NY. I have dealt with Tampa and Miami .. both of
whom were helpful.

I fly around NY, and have found the controllers typically quite helpful to
VFR traffic. In fact, I once surprised a VFR-only pilot in our club with
how helpful they are. We were departing Caldwell for the NJ shore in an
aircraft w/o a GPS (it has since been upgraded, of course {8^). His plan
was to fly around the class B to the west. I suggested "through", which
surprised him a little.

But a quick request to TRACON got us not only entry, but a vector to Colts
Neck (which we couldn't receive at our current position/altitude).

As I said, they're very helpful.

There have been a few exceptions, but these were all (as far as I can
recall) recognizably high-workload situations for them.

But this raises a question about which I keep forgetting. I was once IFRing
into Linden - an uncontrolled airport right next to Newark - in VMC. ATC
wanted me to cancel as early as possible of course, and I was perfectly
willing to do so. I just wanted to be below the class B first, but - at
least where I was - the floor was below ATC's MVA. So I cancelled, but I
felt a little odd being in class B having never received explicit clearance
into it.

Silly of me?

- Andrew