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#361
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In article ,
"Paul J. Adam" wrote: I got a degree from University College London, and have seen Jeremy Bentham's preserved body (he sits in one of the hallways, and is a required presence at meetings of the governing body). I'm not sure that you mean by "liberal" what many other people understand by "liberal". And I'm quite certain of the same for you. As far as that goes, you'd be hard-pressed to find anyone in the modern political scene who would even accept Bentham's utilitarianism as "liberal" in the modern sense. Look at the current "liberal" view that the community has rights over the individual, for example... Of course, the sort of people who would keep a 150 year old preserved skeleton around would be considered something like "traditionalists" or "reactionaries" nowadays, since many of Bentham's ideas have been accepted in some form or another. Political terms tend to shift over time. Look at what happened to the names of political parties in the US, for example. -- cirby at cfl.rr.com Remember: Objects in rearview mirror may be hallucinations. Slam on brakes accordingly. |
#363
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"ArtKramr" wrote in message ... Subject: General Zinni on Sixty Minutes From: Ed Rasimus Date: 6/5/04 3:52 PM Pacific Daylight Time Seriously, I don't think Social Security, Medicare or public education were implemented at gunpoint. They met the demands of "we the people"--even when misguided. Ed Rasimus Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret) Social Security, Medicare and public education misguided? So much for compassionate conservatism. Social Security and Medicare are great, particularly if, like Art, you are receiving the benefits of the money and services you never paid for! Welfare is wonderful! Jarg |
#364
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Ed:
I know you know better. Try "opting out" of the various social safety net programs in order to live by the Constitution. See how long it takes for the men with the guns to show up. You could probably stay out of prison for a year; maybe 18 months tops. Like I said- I *know* you know better; you have posted your bona fides here several times. Steve Swartz "Ed Rasimus" wrote in message ... On Sat, 5 Jun 2004 18:40:23 -0400, "Leslie Swartz" wrote: Ed: And how, precisely, do "liberal solutions" get implemented? At gunpoint. Hardly. We elect representatives who propose alternatives, then amend and compromise and finally create a marginally effective bureaucracy that does nothing for most of us, but garners votes from the unwashed masses for reelection. Seriously, I don't think Social Security, Medicare or public education were implemented at gunpoint. They met the demands of "we the people"--even when misguided. Ed Rasimus Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret) "When Thunder Rolled" Smithsonian Institution Press ISBN #1-58834-103-8 |
#365
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Ed:
There are plenty of non-totalitarian options. Libertarianism, for example. Or Constitutionalism. You do have an MS (or is it an MA?) in Political Science, right? The choices are NOT just between "Welfare State" or "Police State." Steve Swartz "Ed Rasimus" wrote in message ... On Sat, 5 Jun 2004 12:56:18 -0400, "Leslie Swartz" wrote: A vote for Socialism (in even it's weaker forms) is a vote for Totalitarianism. The trend world-wide is for what is referred to as "mixed economies"--some aspects of communism in that there is central planning and governmental interference with the natural flow of supply and demand; and some aspects of free market in which trade of goods and services for profit by individuals is tolerated. Good example would be the current state of China. Interesting to note that the most noteworthy examples of totalitarianism include Stalin, Mao and Hitler--two from the political left extreme and one from the political right. Socialism must be supported by the forced confiscation of the labor of the citizenry. This is done by the power of the state. The power of the state is embodied in Totalitarianism. Kudos to Ayn Rand. You can vote for "a little bit of Socialism" and many believe that the "little bit of Totalitarianism" is acceptable, as long as hte resulting Socilaism is "for the greater good." Certainly in the USA we love our little bits of socialism. Don't try to take away our Social Security or Medicare. And be sure that we include tax cuts for the "working poor" who pay no income tax to begin with. These folks generally believe that there is a "sweet spot" in the tradeoff between liberty and security. Actually there is. Rousseau's Social Contract says that if we are to live with the benefits of society we will have to restrict our freedom of action. The catch is where upon the spectrum you want to place the line. So go ahead and answer your own question: is a vote for Kerry (or Bush, for that matter) a vote for Totalitarianism? So voting is totalitarian? Probably not in the case of the upcoming election. But, there are some clear choices and the appeal to class warfare on the one side is distinctly off-putting for me. I'm a firm believer that I can best choose how to spend my money. Ed Rasimus Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret) "When Thunder Rolled" Smithsonian Institution Press ISBN #1-58834-103-8 |
#366
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Ed Rasimus wrote: Seriously, I don't think Social Security, Medicare or public education were implemented at gunpoint. Ed? None of that is a value to me. *None* of it. And when I don't pay for it, what do you think the state's next move is? Billy http://www.two--four.net/weblog.php |
#367
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ArtKramr wrote: Ed, the Pilot, Navigator, Systems Operator; EWO, Bombardier, Radio Operator, Gunner, and other specialties as required by the mission. You leave me speechless. Arthur Kramer I know there are lots of Pilots, Navigators, Systems Operators and EWOs still in service. Gunners and Radio Operators I believe are still flying on specialized aircraft - What happened to the Bombardiers? Dave |
#368
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On Sun, 6 Jun 2004 17:35:48 -0400, "Leslie Swartz"
wrote: Ed: There are plenty of non-totalitarian options. Most assuredly. While many dictatorships exist, most are authoritarian rather than totalitarian. They simply don't have the resources to get to the level of control required by totalitarianism. Libertarianism, for example. Many classifications list libertarianism as an "anti-government" ideology. While less government is almost everyone's goal, few can support the basic assumptions of libertarianism--that man is inherently good and doesn't need government. Certainly privatization is gaining favor and individual responsibility remains a touchstone of one branch of American politcs, that is a long war from libertarianism. Or Constitutionalism. And, which constitution would that be? Most who pattern themselves as "American Constitutionalists" seem to ignore the 216 years of Constitutional case-law that has adjusted the document to the current world. I'm not inherently a judicial activist, but most who call themselves "strict constructionist" or "original intent" choose to apply their own interpretation to the document. You do have an MS (or is it an MA?) in Political Science, right? MPS, Auburn Univ (at Montgomery) 1978 MSIR, Troy State Univ (European Exension) 1981 The choices are NOT just between "Welfare State" or "Police State." No one has said they were. Steve Swartz Ed Rasimus Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret) "When Thunder Rolled" Smithsonian Institution Press ISBN #1-58834-103-8 |
#369
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On Sun, 06 Jun 2004 16:57:05 GMT, "Jarg"
wrote: Social Security and Medicare are great, particularly if, like Art, you are receiving the benefits of the money and services you never paid for! Welfare is wonderful! Jarg Dunno about Art, but I know I definitely paid for Social Security and Medicare, both when I was on active duty and in the 17 years since retirement. I paid income tax on active duty as well. Ed Rasimus Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret) "When Thunder Rolled" Smithsonian Institution Press ISBN #1-58834-103-8 |
#370
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"Ed Rasimus" wrote in message
... On Sun, 06 Jun 2004 16:57:05 GMT, "Jarg" wrote: Social Security and Medicare are great, particularly if, like Art, you are receiving the benefits of the money and services you never paid for! Welfare is wonderful! Jarg Dunno about Art, but I know I definitely paid for Social Security and Medicare, both when I was on active duty and in the 17 years since retirement. I paid income tax on active duty as well. Ed Rasimus Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret) "When Thunder Rolled" Smithsonian Institution Press ISBN #1-58834-103-8 I image Art also paid something into the system. I'm referring to the fact that the typical recipient will receive benefits far above what they put in. The difference is welfare. Jarg |
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