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#21
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Winch Signals
On 9 Apr, 22:00, John Galloway wrote:
Take up slack = 3 words All Out = 2 words Stop = 1 word The point of the different number of words is rather lost at clubs which use "take up slack take up slack take take up slack all out all out all out all out all out" Nowadays the pilot does not call launch commands. When he has accepted a cable attachment he is deemed to be ready to launch and the the wing runner (or a designated other) is responsible for making the calls properly. Yeah, but that'll be changed again next time someone wants to make a name for themselves in the BGA. Ian |
#22
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Winch Signals
On 10 Apr, 09:15, Derek Copeland wrote:
At 21:00 09 April 2009, John Galloway wrote: Nowadays the pilot does not call launch commands. When he has accepted a cable attachment he is deemed to be ready to launch and the the wing runner (or a designated other) is responsible for making the calls properly. When I first started gliding in the UK, the pilot used to control the launch by holding up one finger, stationary, for 'up slack' and then two fingers, waved in a sort of Churchillian Victory salute, for all out. The problem was that student pilots often went on signalling all the way up the launch and would then make a grab for the wrong knob when they got to the top. I had students who tried to open the canopy, or pull the flap or airbrake levers, when trying to release the cable! When the arrangement outlined by John above came into force, there was quite a lot of British resistance to it, as it was felt to be too 'French'. Not just for that reason. The ostensible reason for the change was to make sure that pilots had a hand free for the release in an emergency. One might well point out that there ain't a much better guarantee that a hand is free (and not fiddling with the electronics) than seeing it waving around but no, that didn't do. And so now we are all free to have our hands on the release know when the launch starts, thereby greatly increasing the change of an unintentional release. Which someone will in due course notice, and change it all again. The problem with the new system is that the ground launch controllers have to be good (which is not always the case) and carefully briefed if there is anything odd about the type. The worst problems I have had are when the glider starts moving with a bit of a jerk and slackens the cable a bit. In the old days one just continued with the "take up slack" until things were all lined up again - now the prodent pilot pulls the bung and shouts "stop" in case one has one of the idiot signallers who thinks any movement of the glider is the cue for "all out". Ian |
#23
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Winch Signals
On 9 Apr, 16:15, Nyal Williams wrote:
What have you heard? *Anyone have any comments to offer? As well as the spoken and light commands I have used single bat: bottom quadrant sweeps = "take up slack", top quadrant = "all out", held above head = "stop" double bat: same, with scissoring movements below and above for the first two no bat: rock wings = "take up slack", hold level = "all out" As a winch driver I detest lights unless automated, because the quality of signalling is dreadfully variable, particularly when people forget the time lag in an incandescent bulb. I'd ban all light signalling if I could. Bats are fine, as are clearly spoken words on a telephone. "All out" just the once is fine, guys, you don't have to keep yacking at me. Ian |
#24
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Winch Signals
An airliner crashed somewhere in the far east (Taiwan?) after the air traffic controller departed from standard phraseology with "descend two five hundred feet" Back in the days when there were flight engineers, during an emergency the captain ordered "take off power". The FE dutifully pulled the throttles back - that was not what the captain wanted. Tony V. |
#25
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Winch Signals
If you have a winch run that is long enough (1km+) to give decent high
launches, then bats are very difficult to see from the winch, unless they are so big as to be unwieldy and difficult to handle in any sort of wind. Also the winch driver will not be able to see them if you launch over a hump, which we do on one of the runs at our airfield. I agree that light signals should be automated so the winch driver can easily distinguish between 'take up slack' (slow flashes) and 'all out' (faster flashes). My club did this years ago. Also we have two lights, so that a stop signal is unlikely to be compromised by a single bulb failure. Derek C At 20:48 11 April 2009, The Real Doctor wrote: On 9 Apr, 16:15, Nyal Williams wrote: What have you heard? =A0Anyone have any comments to offer? As well as the spoken and light commands I have used single bat: bottom quadrant sweeps =3D "take up slack", top quadrant =3D "all out", held above head =3D "stop" double bat: same, with scissoring movements below and above for the first two no bat: rock wings =3D "take up slack", hold level =3D "all out" As a winch driver I detest lights unless automated, because the quality of signalling is dreadfully variable, particularly when people forget the time lag in an incandescent bulb. I'd ban all light signalling if I could. Bats are fine, as are clearly spoken words on a telephone. "All out" just the once is fine, guys, you don't have to keep yacking at me. Ian |
#26
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Winch Signals
If you go back far enough the stop light was a red light, this was fine
until it was remembered that there is no requirement for colour blindness testing for glider pilots, let alone winch drivers. The only real problem with lights only is the confusion between a long dash and the stop signal. Without doubt the most efficient and safe way is voice radio backed up by a STOP light. Clarity with no ambiguity At 06:15 12 April 2009, Derek Copeland wrote: If you have a winch run that is long enough (1km+) to give decent high launches, then bats are very difficult to see from the winch, unless they are so big as to be unwieldy and difficult to handle in any sort of wind. Also the winch driver will not be able to see them if you launch over a hump, which we do on one of the runs at our airfield. I agree that light signals should be automated so the winch driver can easily distinguish between 'take up slack' (slow flashes) and 'all out' (faster flashes). My club did this years ago. Also we have two lights, so that a stop signal is unlikely to be compromised by a single bulb failure. Derek C At 20:48 11 April 2009, The Real Doctor wrote: On 9 Apr, 16:15, Nyal Williams wrote: What have you heard? =A0Anyone have any comments to offer? As well as the spoken and light commands I have used single bat: bottom quadrant sweeps =3D "take up slack", top quadrant =3D "all out", held above head =3D "stop" double bat: same, with scissoring movements below and above for the first two no bat: rock wings =3D "take up slack", hold level =3D "all out" As a winch driver I detest lights unless automated, because the quality of signalling is dreadfully variable, particularly when people forget the time lag in an incandescent bulb. I'd ban all light signalling if I could. Bats are fine, as are clearly spoken words on a telephone. "All out" just the once is fine, guys, you don't have to keep yacking at me. Ian |
#27
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Winch Signals
On 12 Apr, 07:15, Derek Copeland wrote:
If you have a winch run that is long enough (1km+) to give decent high launches, then bats are very difficult to see from the winch, unless they are so big as to be unwieldy and difficult to handle in any sort of wind. Also the winch driver will not be able to see them if you launch over a hump, which we do on one of the runs at our airfield. Indeed. In which case radio or telephone should be used. I agree that light signals should be automated so the winch driver can easily distinguish between 'take up slack' (slow flashes) and 'all out' (faster flashes). Anyone signalling to the winch should, I think, be obliged to spend some time at the business end to see what the winch driver can see, and appreciate what's needed and what the limitations of a particular system are. To give an example, I was winching at one club where the signaller had been told (by a BGA instructor no less) to give the "all out" as a series of fast flashes - 2 per second or thereabouts. The signalling lamp was incandescent, which meant that the signal emerged as a slightly fluctuating dim blur. So I interpreted it as a "stop" and cut the power at once (ie right at the beginning of the ground run). After a certain amount of re-education we were able to proceed in rather greater safety. Ian |
#28
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Winch Signals
On 12 Apr, 11:15, Don Johnstone wrote:
If you go back far enough the stop light was a red light, this was fine until it was remembered that there is no requirement for colour blindness testing for glider pilots, let alone winch drivers. The only real problem with lights only is the confusion between a long dash and the stop signal. I think there are worse problems - mainly the need for the person pressing the button to know (a) what signal he is trying to give and (b) how the light system reacts to the button being pressed. Talking of blindness, though, I used to get launched by a blind winch driver - or at least by one whose eyesight was so bad that he certainly couldn't see the cable and could barely see the glider. "Exciting" was one word for it. Ian |
#29
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Winch Signals
On Apr 12, 7:15*am, Derek Copeland wrote:
Also we have two lights, so that a stop signal is unlikely to be compromised by a single bulb failure. When I'm winching, I'm grateful that we have three lights: * two for the normal up slack and all out * stop = all three lights on continuously I find I process that extra visual cue noticably faster than the difference between stop and the other signals. One day that half second might be important. We also have a buzzer that sounds in sync with the lights. I find that useful confirmation of what I can see. |
#30
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Winch Signals
The signalling lights at our site are located on the top deck of a double
decker bus, so you can still see then over the hump. In the UK there are only about 3 commonly available gliding frequencies, and some gliding clubs are not that far apart. I could well imagine trying to launch a glider on instructions that come from another club! Also winch launching (and speed calls) would tie up a frequency that is often required for other purposes. Land lines have been tried in the UK, but it has been reported that they were chewed through by rats, rabbits, sheep and other assorted critters. even when buried in the ground. And yes I know that the Germans have to use this system by the decree of the LBA. How do they avoid critter damage? Derek C At 10:31 12 April 2009, The Real Doctor wrote: On 12 Apr, 07:15, Derek Copeland wrote: If you have a winch run that is long enough (1km+) to give decent high launches, then bats are very difficult to see from the winch, unless they are so big as to be unwieldy and difficult to handle in any sort of wind. Also the winch driver will not be able to see them if you launch over a hump, which we do on one of the runs at our airfield. Indeed. In which case radio or telephone should be used. I agree that light signals should be automated so the winch driver can easily distinguish between 'take up slack' (slow flashes) and 'all out' (faster flashes). Anyone signalling to the winch should, I think, be obliged to spend some time at the business end to see what the winch driver can see, and appreciate what's needed and what the limitations of a particular system are. To give an example, I was winching at one club where the signaller had been told (by a BGA instructor no less) to give the "all out" as a series of fast flashes - 2 per second or thereabouts. The signalling lamp was incandescent, which meant that the signal emerged as a slightly fluctuating dim blur. So I interpreted it as a "stop" and cut the power at once (ie right at the beginning of the ground run). After a certain amount of re-education we were able to proceed in rather greater safety. Ian |
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