Field capacity to repair, overhall, reconstuct, and build airplanes in W.W.I.I.

A question has come up on anoouhter thread: Did airbases during
W.W.I.I have mini-factories near-by able to assemble airplanes from a
combination of recylced parts, mini-milled machine parts (ferrous
parts and aluminium parts, but not organic parts), and new spare
parts?

I have seen several domumentaries were there are mentions of small
industrial furnaces being deployed to the Pacific and new part
milling, the robust repair and recylcing of Hurricanes, and in one
documentary on the B-26 of whole plane final assemeble do right on
base from parts from a vareity of sources.

In addition, I have heard that on US aircraft carriers any metal
aircraft part can be made on board using furnances and milling tools
right on board: Is this so today? Was this so in W.W.I.I. ?

How many airmen did the Allied airforces have ground working in
England? How sophisticated and massive was aircraft maintence? Could
they assemble a warplane? Could they make a new engine using badly
damaged engines as the raw material?

Also, the internet didn't have a great deal on on-base or near-base
cottage warplane stuff, but it gets mentions in documeteries.



John Freck

"John Freck" wrote in message
om...
A question has come up on anoouhter thread: Did airbases during
W.W.I.I have mini-factories near-by able to assemble airplanes from a
combination of recylced parts, mini-milled machine parts (ferrous
parts and aluminium parts, but not organic parts), and new spare
parts?


No

I have seen several domumentaries were there are mentions of small
industrial furnaces being deployed to the Pacific and new part
milling, the robust repair and recylcing of Hurricanes, and in one
documentary on the B-26 of whole plane final assemeble do right on
base from parts from a vareity of sources.


You have asked several questions, to answer them individually

1) Were small industrial furnaces deployed to the Pacific ?

That depends on what you define as a small industrial furnace.
Blacksmiths forges certainly were, aluminium smelters
certainly were not.

2) Were new parts sometimes milled in the field ?

Sure but only at great need, normally you pick the
spares up from the stores maintained on base and
which are purchased from the aircraft manufacturer

3) Were Hurricanes repaired and even recycled ?

Certainly, an entire organisation was created for just
this purpose with minor battle damage being handled
by the squadrons themselves, more substantial repairs
being handled by specialist units which were part of the
Civilian Repair Organisation and were located away from
the airfields.

4 ) In addition, I have heard that on US aircraft carriers any metal
aircraft part can be made on board using furnances and milling tools
right on board: Is this so today?

No, think about for a moment , can you make an engine control
micro processor with a furnace and milling machine ?

5) Was this so in W.W.I.I. ?

No, you cant make a Merlin Engine or an H2S radar set that
way either.



6) How many airmen did the Allied airforces have ground working in
England?

Hundreds of thousands

7) How sophisticated and massive was aircraft maintence?

It was comparable to the motor industry

8) Could they assemble a warplane?

No, in the same way your local Ford dealer cant assemble a
new Mondeo

9) Could they make a new engine using badly
damaged engines as the raw material?

They could scavenge parts from a dead one to keep
a live engine going but this would be done only in
extreme circumstances, engine failure on take off
usually kills the pilot and crew


Also, the internet didn't have a great deal on on-base or near-base
cottage warplane stuff, but it gets mentions in documeteries.


Lets kill this once and for all.

I live in East Anglia, there are literally dozens of old USAAF and
RAF base within 25 miles of my house. NOT ONE had or had
such a facility. Just doing routine maintenenance and battle damage
repair had the ground crews working 12-16 hours a day as it was.

Get Real

Keith

"Keith Willshaw" wrote in message ...


Prehaps where you are, Britain, the aviation industry isn't as large
as it is here in the USA.
I live in Fort Lauderdale, Florida. Today, there is no doubt that
aircraft engine part manufacture exists.
These companies are not huge, and I bet there are small companies able
to make jet engine parts all over the USA. Jet engine part makers are
in my local phone book; I have seen the buildings that house these
next to Miami International Airport and they are not huge. Not really
huge like Boeing's final assemble plant in Seatle,
Just the sort of operation, I claim, existed on USAAF bases in the
1940s does exist near large interantional airports in the USA today.


http://yp.yahoo.com/py/ypResults.py?...80.115800&cs=5


"John Freck" wrote in message
om...


A question has come up on anoouhter thread: Did airbases during
W.W.I.I have mini-factories near-by able to assemble airplanes from a
combination of recylced parts, mini-milled machine parts (ferrous
parts and aluminium parts, but not organic parts), and new spare
parts?


No



You are wrong, and you basically admit it futherdown. I provided a
Yellow Book listing for today's situation for South Florida. How
about admitting that the avaition industry does this today? Huh?



I have seen several domumentaries were there are mentions of small
industrial furnaces being deployed to the Pacific and new part
milling, the robust repair and recylcing of Hurricanes, and in one
documentary on the B-26 of whole plane final assemeble do right on
base from parts from a vareity of sources.


You have asked several questions, to answer them individually

1) Were small industrial furnaces deployed to the Pacific ?

That depends on what you define as a small industrial furnace.
Blacksmiths forges certainly were, aluminium smelters
certainly were not.


As far as I know an alumium smelter isn't needed to process alumium
metal in already process metal form, such as a used cola can, or
aircrafts' structural memebers. It can be hard for a small slumium
recycler to make new structrual members.



2) Were new parts sometimes milled in the field ?


Sure but only at great need, normally you pick the
spares up from the stores maintained on base and
which are purchased from the aircraft manufacturer

Today, there are tens of thousands of commercialpassenger jets flying
the world, and it looks to me as if just the sort of operation I
described is common place. With a little yellow book researching, I
might confirm that the amount of medium sized bussiness making jet
engine, and other airplane parts, is common whereever there is an
airport with heavy mantience. Hell, maybe light too.



3) Were Hurricanes repaired and even recycled ?


Certainly, an entire organisation was created for just
this purpose with minor battle damage being handled
by the squadrons themselves, more substantial repairs
being handled by specialist units which were part of the
Civilian Repair Organisation and were located away from
the airfields.



Wouldn't it be more fuel, time, and money effiecient to have this
labor near large airbases?
Why not pack the stuff up and go to the field?



4 ) In addition, I have heard that on US aircraft carriers any metal
aircraft part can be made on board using furnances and milling tools
right on board: Is this so today?

No, think about for a moment , can you make an engine control
micro processor with a furnace and milling machine ?



I said metal parts, and not organic parts. Organic parts would
include tires, hoses, betls, glass (ok not organic), foam, and ire
insulation, and chemicals. By no means do the big factories make
everything for an airplane from utter scratch raw materials, you know.
These feeder business in the situaitons would simply route stuff to
the airbases instead of the large factory. The aviation industry
doesn't make aviation grade alumium; it is ordered from the alumium
processing industry.



5) Was this so in W.W.I.I. ?

No, you cant make a Merlin Engine or an H2S radar set that
way either.


They do it today for commerical passenger jet engines.



6) How many airmen did the Allied airforces have ground working in
England?

Hundreds of thousands


That is no par with the numbers of factory works employed by large
plants and the first rign of supply to factory factories.



7) How sophisticated and massive was aircraft maintence?

It was comparable to the motor industry


Right.


8) Could they assemble a warplane?

No, in the same way your local Ford dealer cant assemble a
new Mondeo


People today assemble more complicated planes from kits they have
purchased.
You might look up in the London phone book and see just how
sophiticated all automoblie
repair and resortation is. Just take a constellation of small to
medium auto repair bussiness, put them
close together, buy them small "pilot" scale stuff like a furnace, and
some tool and die company thrown it for good measure, and price
supports too. When you are done, you will have a auto manufacturer
with no more than a few hundred employees. There were at one time
scores upon scores of automonble makers and they all didn't make
millions of cars a year, for some it was few hundreds of cars sold per
year.




9) Could they make a new engine using badly
damaged engines as the raw material?


They could scavenge parts from a dead one to keep
a live engine going but this would be done only in
extreme circumstances, engine failure on take off
usually kills the pilot and crew


Also, the internet didn't have a great deal on on-base or near-base
cottage warplane stuff, but it gets mentions in documeteries.


Lets kill this once and for all.

I live in East Anglia, there are literally dozens of old USAAF and
RAF base within 25 miles of my house. NOT ONE had or had
such a facility. Just doing routine maintenenance and battle damage
repair had the ground crews working 12-16 hours a day as it was.

Get Real


Look at the current state of affairs with aviation repair. There must
over 100 companies making new parts at near airports in the USA alone.

John Freck


Keith

"John Freck" wrote in message
om...
"Keith Willshaw" wrote in message
...


Prehaps where you are, Britain, the aviation industry isn't as large
as it is here in the USA.

True enough

I live in Fort Lauderdale, Florida. Today, there is no doubt that
aircraft engine part manufacture exists.
These companies are not huge, and I bet there are small companies able
to make jet engine parts all over the USA. Jet engine part makers are
in my local phone book; I have seen the buildings that house these
next to Miami International Airport and they are not huge. Not really
huge like Boeing's final assemble plant in Seatle,

So ?

Just the sort of operation, I claim, existed on USAAF bases in the
1940s does exist near large interantional airports in the USA today.


There's a plant just down the road from me that makes
aircraft drop tanks. Thats a LONG way from building
Eurofighter in your back yard.



http://yp.yahoo.com/py/ypResults.py?...80.115800&cs=5


"John Freck" wrote in message
om...


A question has come up on anoouhter thread: Did airbases during
W.W.I.I have mini-factories near-by able to assemble airplanes from a
combination of recylced parts, mini-milled machine parts (ferrous
parts and aluminium parts, but not organic parts), and new spare
parts?


No



You are wrong, and you basically admit it futherdown. I provided a
Yellow Book listing for today's situation for South Florida. How
about admitting that the avaition industry does this today? Huh?


It doesnt, the example you gave is of a plant that makes PARTS
for an aircraft just as small factories make parts for computers
and cars



I have seen several domumentaries were there are mentions of small
industrial furnaces being deployed to the Pacific and new part
milling, the robust repair and recylcing of Hurricanes, and in one
documentary on the B-26 of whole plane final assemeble do right on
base from parts from a vareity of sources.


You have asked several questions, to answer them individually

1) Were small industrial furnaces deployed to the Pacific ?

That depends on what you define as a small industrial furnace.
Blacksmiths forges certainly were, aluminium smelters
certainly were not.


As far as I know an alumium smelter isn't needed to process alumium
metal in already process metal form, such as a used cola can, or
aircrafts' structural memebers. It can be hard for a small slumium
recycler to make new structrual members.


Such operations dont require a furnace.



2) Were new parts sometimes milled in the field ?


Sure but only at great need, normally you pick the
spares up from the stores maintained on base and
which are purchased from the aircraft manufacturer

Today, there are tens of thousands of commercialpassenger jets flying
the world, and it looks to me as if just the sort of operation I
described is common place. With a little yellow book researching, I
might confirm that the amount of medium sized bussiness making jet
engine, and other airplane parts, is common whereever there is an
airport with heavy mantience. Hell, maybe light too.


Note the distributed manufacture of parts is not in question.




3) Were Hurricanes repaired and even recycled ?


Certainly, an entire organisation was created for just
this purpose with minor battle damage being handled
by the squadrons themselves, more substantial repairs
being handled by specialist units which were part of the
Civilian Repair Organisation and were located away from
the airfields.



Wouldn't it be more fuel, time, and money effiecient to have this
labor near large airbases?

No

Why not pack the stuff up and go to the field?


Because one field might only have 2 repairs a week to perform,
its much more efficient to ship them to a regional repair centre.



4 ) In addition, I have heard that on US aircraft carriers any metal
aircraft part can be made on board using furnances and milling tools
right on board: Is this so today?

No, think about for a moment , can you make an engine control
micro processor with a furnace and milling machine ?



I said metal parts, and not organic parts.

Silicon chips arent organic

Organic parts would

include tires, hoses, betls, glass (ok not organic), foam, and ire
insulation, and chemicals. By no means do the big factories make
everything for an airplane from utter scratch raw materials, you know.
These feeder business in the situaitons would simply route stuff to
the airbases instead of the large factory. The aviation industry
doesn't make aviation grade alumium; it is ordered from the alumium
processing industry.


They do however have complex asssembly jigs and expensive
machine tools to shape that aluminum



5) Was this so in W.W.I.I. ?

No, you cant make a Merlin Engine or an H2S radar set that
way either.


They do it today for commerical passenger jet engines.


No they dont. Jet engines are built by a handful of specialist
companies who may buy parts from smaller outfits



6) How many airmen did the Allied airforces have ground working in
England?

Hundreds of thousands


That is no par with the numbers of factory works employed by large
plants and the first rign of supply to factory factories.



This makes no sense



7) How sophisticated and massive was aircraft maintence?

It was comparable to the motor industry


Right.


8) Could they assemble a warplane?

No, in the same way your local Ford dealer cant assemble a
new Mondeo


People today assemble more complicated planes from kits they have
purchased.

The kits are of course made in a factory

You might look up in the London phone book and see just how
sophiticated all automoblie
repair and resortation is. Just take a constellation of small to
medium auto repair bussiness, put them
close together, buy them small "pilot" scale stuff like a furnace, and
some tool and die company thrown it for good measure, and price
supports too.

You just described an operation thats extremely inefficient

When you are done, you will have a auto manufacturer
with no more than a few hundred employees. There were at one time
scores upon scores of automonble makers and they all didn't make
millions of cars a year, for some it was few hundreds of cars sold per
year.


Such operations exist, their cars cost hundreds of thousands
of dollars




9) Could they make a new engine using badly
damaged engines as the raw material?


They could scavenge parts from a dead one to keep
a live engine going but this would be done only in
extreme circumstances, engine failure on take off
usually kills the pilot and crew


Also, the internet didn't have a great deal on on-base or near-base
cottage warplane stuff, but it gets mentions in documeteries.


Lets kill this once and for all.

I live in East Anglia, there are literally dozens of old USAAF and
RAF base within 25 miles of my house. NOT ONE had or had
such a facility. Just doing routine maintenenance and battle damage
repair had the ground crews working 12-16 hours a day as it was.

Get Real


Look at the current state of affairs with aviation repair. There must
over 100 companies making new parts at near airports in the USA alone.

John Freck


You seem unable to see the difference between a part and the whole

How sad

Keith

"John Freck" wrote in message
om...
A question has come up on anoouhter thread: Did airbases during
W.W.I.I have mini-factories near-by able to assemble airplanes from a
combination of recylced parts, mini-milled machine parts (ferrous
parts and aluminium parts, but not organic parts), and new spare
parts?

Here's a couple of things I've picked from books and museums....

The 'Block and Cube' test at RAF Halton involved each apprentice being given
a rough lump of one metal and a thin square of another, object being to
shape each piece using workshop tools that would available at any decent
base they might go on to serve at. The shapes had to be a perfect square
cube with a block it would sit in, all done to specifications and by hand.
I was told this would enable the manufacture of most, if not all, needed
parts that were otherwise unavailable.

During the Battle of Britain it was not unknown for damaged aircraft to be
cannibalised to provide spare parts for lesser damaged aircraft. This would
involve any part that would allow another machine to fly within safety
limits. 'Skies of Fire' by Alfred Price has a chapter about 266 Squadron who
flew Spitfires. The Engineering Officer broke his 'pet rule' about not
cannibalising aircraft to the extent he took a starboard wing from one
aircraft (the only undamaged part overall) to get another in the air.
I assume any damaged remains would have been taken away for further
repair/disposal at a different location when time allowed, as suggested by
other people here. Marshalls of Cambridge were involved in this and IIRC
there was a small airstrip somewhere in Anglia purely for a repair factory,
allowing previously damaged aircraft to fly out.

Nick

"Nick Pedley" wrote in message
...

"John Freck" wrote in message
om...
A question has come up on anoouhter thread: Did airbases during
W.W.I.I have mini-factories near-by able to assemble airplanes from a
combination of recylced parts, mini-milled machine parts (ferrous
parts and aluminium parts, but not organic parts), and new spare
parts?

Here's a couple of things I've picked from books and museums....

The 'Block and Cube' test at RAF Halton involved each apprentice being
given
a rough lump of one metal and a thin square of another, object being to
shape each piece using workshop tools that would available at any decent
base they might go on to serve at. The shapes had to be a perfect square
cube with a block it would sit in, all done to specifications and by hand.
I was told this would enable the manufacture of most, if not all, needed
parts that were otherwise unavailable.


I did this as part of my mechanical fitters apprenticeship
for ICI in 1968. Its bloody har work and takes a LOT
of man hours

During the Battle of Britain it was not unknown for damaged aircraft to be
cannibalised to provide spare parts for lesser damaged aircraft. This
would
involve any part that would allow another machine to fly within safety
limits. 'Skies of Fire' by Alfred Price has a chapter about 266 Squadron
who
flew Spitfires. The Engineering Officer broke his 'pet rule' about not
cannibalising aircraft to the extent he took a starboard wing from one
aircraft (the only undamaged part overall) to get another in the air.
I assume any damaged remains would have been taken away for further
repair/disposal at a different location when time allowed, as suggested by
other people here. Marshalls of Cambridge were involved in this and IIRC
there was a small airstrip somewhere in Anglia purely for a repair
factory,
allowing previously damaged aircraft to fly out.

Nick



Marshalls are based at Cambridge Airport, the runway
can handle aircraft of all sizes, the refurbish 747's and
Tri-Stars there.

Keith

"Keith Willshaw" wrote in message
...

"Nick Pedley" wrote in message
...

"John Freck" wrote in message
om...
A question has come up on anoouhter thread: Did airbases during
W.W.I.I have mini-factories near-by able to assemble airplanes from a
combination of recylced parts, mini-milled machine parts (ferrous
parts and aluminium parts, but not organic parts), and new spare
parts?

Here's a couple of things I've picked from books and museums....

The 'Block and Cube' test at RAF Halton ....


I did this as part of my mechanical fitters apprenticeship
for ICI in 1968. Its bloody har work and takes a LOT
of man hours.

I'm impressed. I had trouble believing the old boy on his display stand at
an RAF Halton event last year. Just looking at the rough lumps of metal made
me wonder!

I assume any damaged remains would have been taken away for further
repair/disposal at a different location when time allowed, as suggested
by
other people here. Marshalls of Cambridge were involved in this and IIRC
there was a small airstrip somewhere in Anglia purely for a repair
factory,
allowing previously damaged aircraft to fly out.

Nick


Marshalls are based at Cambridge Airport, the runway
can handle aircraft of all sizes, the refurbish 747's and
Tri-Stars there.

Keith

Sorry, should have made myself clear. From reading books like 'Airfields of
the Eighth Army Air Force/9th AAF/Bomber Command/Fighter Command' etc, I
recall reading about a repair location which was little more than a barn
converted into a hangar with a bit of flat field, near a road. Not sure
where it was but am certain it wasn't the Marshalls operation at
Cambridge...

Nick

In message , Keith Willshaw
writes

"Nick Pedley" wrote in message
...

"John Freck" wrote in message
om...
A question has come up on anoouhter thread: Did airbases during
W.W.I.I have mini-factories near-by able to assemble airplanes from a
combination of recylced parts, mini-milled machine parts (ferrous
parts and aluminium parts, but not organic parts), and new spare
parts?

Here's a couple of things I've picked from books and museums....

The 'Block and Cube' test at RAF Halton involved each apprentice being
given
a rough lump of one metal and a thin square of another, object being to
shape each piece using workshop tools that would available at any decent
base they might go on to serve at. The shapes had to be a perfect square
cube with a block it would sit in, all done to specifications and by hand.
I was told this would enable the manufacture of most, if not all, needed
parts that were otherwise unavailable.


I did this as part of my mechanical fitters apprenticeship
for ICI in 1968. Its bloody har work and takes a LOT
of man hours

Me, too. For English Electric in '49. File and scraper work. And plenty
of 'Blue'.

Mike
--
M.J.Powell

"M. J. Powell" wrote:


I did this as part of my mechanical fitters apprenticeship
for ICI in 1968. Its bloody har work and takes a LOT
of man hours

Me, too. For English Electric in '49. File and scraper work. And plenty
of 'Blue'.

Mike

Yes, good old 'mechanic's blue', takes me back...
--

-Gord.

"M. J. Powell" wrote in message
...
In message , Keith Willshaw
writes


I did this as part of my mechanical fitters apprenticeship
for ICI in 1968. Its bloody har work and takes a LOT
of man hours

Me, too. For English Electric in '49. File and scraper work. And plenty
of 'Blue'.

Thats the drill , file it square and scrape the top flat checking
with a surface plate.

Keith