Aircraft performance flight models

I'll repeat this every so often, probly once a week for a while.

Aircraft performance flight models

I'm developing flight models for an upcoming combat flight simulator
for next year, to say the leaste it will knock the world back a bit as
nothing like this has really been done before. ANY information along the
lines of real world flight envelopes for modern day warplanes (from say F-4
onwards) from around the world would be GREATLY appreciated and likely even
credited if the info was in large quantities and of a usefull quality.
Takoff speeds, landing speeds, distances for TO and landing. If the holy
grail of G charts should become known unto me( I already have one for F-4)
you shall be knighted! (ok not really BUT if I could) Thanks for any
upcoming help. If you have info you can post it here or(preferably to
prevent me from missing it on this server) send direct to me at
with the subject "Flight Envelopes" (even if it isnt
quite to do with the envelope) so it doesnt get spam filtered out. Records
will be kept as to who sent what, and you may choose to be annonymouse if
you wish. Thanks again all :-)

"boomer" wrote in message
...
I'll repeat this every so often, probly once a week for a while.

Why?

because some people dont get up here much. Dont worry, I think if the group
can stand limitless posts about how awful polititians are , it can stand
this small post once a week for a while.


"Vaughn" wrote in message
...

"boomer" wrote in message
...
I'll repeat this every so often, probly once a week for a while.

Why?

On Sun, 1 Feb 2004 13:40:16 -0600, "boomer"
wrote:

because some people dont get up here much. Dont worry, I think if the group
can stand limitless posts about how awful polititians are , it can stand
this small post once a week for a while.


"Vaughn" wrote in message
...

"boomer" wrote in message
...
I'll repeat this every so often, probly once a week for a while.


The real problem, Boomer, is that the information request is so
nebulous that you can't get anything meaningful in return. I've got
the F-4C/D/E -1-1 in the bookshelf behind me. It's got the
"performance flight models" you seek, but it is a huge, telephone
sized book of charts and graphs. Finding something as basic as a
takeoff roll requires inputs of weight (need charts on weapons, fuel
load, suspension gear, ECM pods, missiles, etc--all based on
particular model). Then field elevation, available runway. Now add
some weather data like wind, temperature, pressure altitude. Oh, don't
forget slope. Finally you can get a takeoff roll. Which will lead you
to a nosewheel lift off speed and a takeoff speed. But, you still need
a decision speed, and a refusal speed, and a critical field length.

And, you haven't begun to fly yet. Then cruise and climb data and
range and specific fuel. Which requires model and drag and stability
index numbers.

You've asked for all the numbers of all the tactical airplanes "from
the F-4 onward". That's a lot of books and a lot of charts and a lot
of training to figure out how to use them.

Converting it all into "performance flight models" for a PC supported
simulator/gaming experience is not a trivial task.

Even if this were a binary group, it would be virtually impossible to
post the graphics of the charts you seek for even one of the aircraft.
For you to be able to do something meaningful with it would be
difficult.

Maybe you should narrow your request rather than repeat it.



Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

Ed Rasimus wrote:

On Sun, 1 Feb 2004 13:40:16 -0600, "boomer"
wrote:

because some people dont get up here much. Dont worry, I think if the group
can stand limitless posts about how awful polititians are , it can stand
this small post once a week for a while.


"Vaughn" wrote in message
...

"boomer" wrote in message
...
I'll repeat this every so often, probly once a week for a while.


The real problem, Boomer, is that the information request is so
nebulous that you can't get anything meaningful in return. I've got
the F-4C/D/E -1-1 in the bookshelf behind me. It's got the
"performance flight models" you seek, but it is a huge, telephone
sized book of charts and graphs. Finding something as basic as a
takeoff roll requires inputs of weight (need charts on weapons, fuel
load, suspension gear, ECM pods, missiles, etc--all based on
particular model). Then field elevation, available runway. Now add
some weather data like wind, temperature, pressure altitude. Oh, don't
forget slope. Finally you can get a takeoff roll. Which will lead you
to a nosewheel lift off speed and a takeoff speed. But, you still need
a decision speed, and a refusal speed, and a critical field length.

And, you haven't begun to fly yet. Then cruise and climb data and
range and specific fuel. Which requires model and drag and stability
index numbers.

You've asked for all the numbers of all the tactical airplanes "from
the F-4 onward". That's a lot of books and a lot of charts and a lot
of training to figure out how to use them.

Converting it all into "performance flight models" for a PC supported
simulator/gaming experience is not a trivial task.

Even if this were a binary group, it would be virtually impossible to
post the graphics of the charts you seek for even one of the aircraft.
For you to be able to do something meaningful with it would be
difficult.

Maybe you should narrow your request rather than repeat it.

More realistically, he should buy the Dash-1-1s for many U.S. a.c that are
available online, at sites such as:

http://www.eflightmanuals.com/detail...goryGroupID=44.

or check out eBay.

Personally, I have my doubts about how easy it will be to read and measure
performance nomograms on a computer screen if you buy the CD version, and even
printed copies can be rough. I've got an original 1F-104A-1 (also covers the
A/19, B, C, and D) which includes the performance section (aka -1-1); there are
entire chapters of nomograms and graphs for determining, in addition to takeoff
as Ed described, climb rate, accel time, fuel burn, range, endurance, descent,
landing, turn rate, etc., altogether several hundred pages of charts. Trying to
read those charts without a strong light and sometimes a magnifying glass can be
difficult. And then you'd have to try and convert all that data to something a
computer could use.

Guy

"boomer" wrote in message
...
because some people dont get up here much. Dont worry, I think if the
group
can stand limitless posts about how awful polititians are , it can stand
this small post once a week for a while.


Congrats you just made lots of kill files

*PLONK*

Keith

I dont mind being on your kill file!

"Keith Willshaw" wrote in message
...

"boomer" wrote in message
...
because some people dont get up here much. Dont worry, I think if the
group
can stand limitless posts about how awful polititians are , it can stand
this small post once a week for a while.


Congrats you just made lots of kill files

*PLONK*

Keith

thanks to both of you for informative rather than flame replys.

Actually just this weekend, I have already gotten some very good charts from
someone reguarding the F-4E performance. Even just Vmins and Vmax for the 1
G lope is VERY helpfull (but they gave me MUCH more). My previouse envelope
work for variouse planes has been acepted as quite good, but I am always
trying to improve them even if I have to use quite a bit of "SWAGing" to get
the job done. My F-14 has been called "legendary" and "spot on" so I'm
getting SOMETHING close to realalistic. I know a few people at Hill AFB and
they have been helpfull with my F-16. My A-10 may be the best of any sim
anywhere. Take-off and landing roles are frequently available on the net
(although thay are not nessesarily "fact" ), I gather everything I can and
go from there. As far as Dash-1s , a lot of those arnt even available for
newer aircraft and buying those for 100 or more aircraft can get a bit
pricey lol. Anyway thanks to anyone who can help, and for everyone who can
tolerate my presence here.

"Guy Alcala" wrote in message
. ..
Ed Rasimus wrote:

On Sun, 1 Feb 2004 13:40:16 -0600, "boomer"
wrote:

because some people dont get up here much. Dont worry, I think if the
group
can stand limitless posts about how awful polititians are , it can
stand
this small post once a week for a while.


"Vaughn" wrote in message
...

"boomer" wrote in message
...
I'll repeat this every so often, probly once a week for a while.


The real problem, Boomer, is that the information request is so
nebulous that you can't get anything meaningful in return. I've got
the F-4C/D/E -1-1 in the bookshelf behind me. It's got the
"performance flight models" you seek, but it is a huge, telephone
sized book of charts and graphs. Finding something as basic as a
takeoff roll requires inputs of weight (need charts on weapons, fuel
load, suspension gear, ECM pods, missiles, etc--all based on
particular model). Then field elevation, available runway. Now add
some weather data like wind, temperature, pressure altitude. Oh, don't
forget slope. Finally you can get a takeoff roll. Which will lead you
to a nosewheel lift off speed and a takeoff speed. But, you still need
a decision speed, and a refusal speed, and a critical field length.

And, you haven't begun to fly yet. Then cruise and climb data and
range and specific fuel. Which requires model and drag and stability
index numbers.

You've asked for all the numbers of all the tactical airplanes "from
the F-4 onward". That's a lot of books and a lot of charts and a lot
of training to figure out how to use them.

Converting it all into "performance flight models" for a PC supported
simulator/gaming experience is not a trivial task.

Even if this were a binary group, it would be virtually impossible to
post the graphics of the charts you seek for even one of the aircraft.
For you to be able to do something meaningful with it would be
difficult.

Maybe you should narrow your request rather than repeat it.

More realistically, he should buy the Dash-1-1s for many U.S. a.c that are
available online, at sites such as:

http://www.eflightmanuals.com/detail...goryGroupID=44.

or check out eBay.

Personally, I have my doubts about how easy it will be to read and measure
performance nomograms on a computer screen if you buy the CD version, and
even
printed copies can be rough. I've got an original 1F-104A-1 (also covers
the
A/19, B, C, and D) which includes the performance section (aka -1-1);
there are
entire chapters of nomograms and graphs for determining, in addition to
takeoff
as Ed described, climb rate, accel time, fuel burn, range, endurance,
descent,
landing, turn rate, etc., altogether several hundred pages of charts.
Trying to
read those charts without a strong light and sometimes a magnifying glass
can be
difficult. And then you'd have to try and convert all that data to
something a
computer could use.

Guy

boomer wrote:

(snip)

Anyway thanks to anyone who can help, and for everyone who can
tolerate my presence here.

Well, I could tolerate your presence here a lot more easily if you
weren't telling me what I could and couldn't post on another thread just
recently!

John

"John Mullen" wrote in message
...
boomer wrote:

(snip)

Anyway thanks to anyone who can help, and for everyone who can
tolerate my presence here.

Well, I could tolerate your presence here a lot more easily if you
weren't telling me what I could and couldn't post on another thread just
recently!

Hush, Mullen.