Spin training for US pilots?

On Sunday, June 2, 2013 9:24:23 PM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
On Sunday, June 2, 2013 6:04:58 PM UTC-7, Bill D wrote:

On Sunday, June 2, 2013 6:22:48 PM UTC-6, jfitch wrote:



On Sunday, June 2, 2013 9:20:45 AM UTC-7, Bill D wrote:







On Sunday, June 2, 2013 8:53:11 AM UTC-6, Sean F (F2) wrote:















I did spin training in CA shortly after recieving my glider license. It has been very helpful for me as I have continued along with glider flight.































































How many of you, US pilots, have had formal spin instruction (not one spin but half a day or more)?































































Personally I am amazed that a US glider pilot can get their license without ever spinning in a glider. As I understand it, absolutely ZERO spins are required to complete you training and receive both your private or commercial rating.































































That said, this great video (British I believe) was very similar to the spin instruction I received. I hope it is helpful to any pilots who have not yet had extensive spin/spin recovery training.































































http://youtu.be/p8_mJmR2qlw































































Just do this! It could save a life!































































Sean































F2































I think only a fool would argue spin training isn't a good idea. Whether it is "necessary" is a slightly different issue.































A view in the US is risks associated with spin training are about the same as the risks avoided so there is little to be gained one way or the other. Another is teaching stall/spin avoidance is more important and, as a practical matter, more useful than teaching spin recovery. That's why Part 61 doesn't require them except for flight instructors.































In support of that view, most German gliders built in the last 25 years are quite spin resistant - so much so it is difficult to get them to spin unless the CG is quite far aft. Probably this is why accident reports show a declining number of spin accidents (We've just figured out other ways to kill ourselves.)































The exception is many gliders from Eastern Europe which tend to be more "spinnable". I wouldn't suggest anyone fly these gliders without complete spin training.































I can't leave this subject without mentioning something I've noticed reading accident report narratives. Witness descriptions of "spin-in's" seem to leave open the possibility what they really saw was a spiral dive that developed from an incipient spin. The typical wording used by witnesses was something like, "The glider entered a diving turn which continued to impact." That's not how I would describe a spin but possibly what a spiral dive would look like. The unfortunate pilot seems to have inappropriately applied anti-spin controls when he could have survived if spiral dive recovery technique had been used.































The takehome for me is to make absolutely sure students know the difference between spins and spiral dives and how to recover from each.















I can't agree with the idea that German gliders don't spin. At least the ones I am most familiar with (ash26e, duo discus, ask21) will spin. At least you will get a nice spin departure, maybe it turns into a spiral dive quickly but on the turn to final that is only of academic interest.















If you are a serious glider pilot, why would you NOT want the training? If it is too scary then you certainly shouldn't be flying where I fly.....







I said "spin resistant" not that they wouldn't spin.



I'm not sure what terms to use. I haven't noticed much "resistance" - get too slow in a turn and the wing drops into a spin departure. Not much different than the 2-32 or the eastern European gliders I have flown. They may be more resistant to a fully developed spin, but where this is typically a problem, 1/2 turn and you meet the trees.



Now a 2-33, that is somewhat "spin resistant" - but you can still get it to start!



One problem for training, its getting harder to find a glider that is certificated for intentional spins.

I also thought a 2-33 didn't like to spin until seeing this video:

http://www.flixxy.com/10-year-old-li...-sailplane.htm

Sean Franke

On 6/4/2013 6:46 AM, Sean Franke wrote:

(Some major snips for continuity's sake...)

I did spin training in CA shortly after receiving my glider
license. It has been very helpful for me as I have continued
along with glider flight.

...this great video (British I believe) was very similar
to the spin instruction I received. I hope it is helpful to any
pilots who have not yet had extensive spin/spin recovery
training.

http://youtu.be/p8_mJmR2qlw

Just do this! It could save a life!

A view in the US is risks associated with spin training are about
the same as the risks avoided so there is little to be gained one
way or the other. Another is teaching stall/spin avoidance is more
important and, as a practical matter, more useful than teaching
spin recovery. That's why Part 61 doesn't require them except for
flight instructors.

In support of that view, most German gliders built in the last 25
years are quite spin resistant...(We've
just figured out other ways to kill ourselves.)

The exception is many gliders from Eastern Europe which tend to be
more "spinnable"...

I can't agree with the idea that German gliders don't spin. At least
the ones I am most familiar with (ash26e, duo discus, ask21) will
spin. At least you will get a nice spin departure, maybe it turns
into a spiral dive quickly but on the turn to final that is only of
academic interest.

I said "spin resistant" not that they wouldn't spin.

I'm not sure what terms to use. I haven't noticed much "resistance" - get
too slow in a turn and the wing drops into a spin departure. Not much
different than the 2-32 or the eastern European gliders I have flown.
They may be more resistant to a fully developed spin, but where this is
typically a problem, 1/2 turn and you meet the trees.

Now a 2-33, that is somewhat "spin resistant" - but you can still get it
to start!

One problem for training, its getting harder to find a glider that is
certificated for intentional spins.

I also thought a 2-33 didn't like to spin until seeing this video:

http://www.flixxy.com/10-year-old-li...-sailplane.htm

Sean Franke

When unintentional departures from controlled flight - whether leading to a
"fully developed spin" or to "merely a fully-controllable spiral dive" -
happen with "too thin" margins, they're always seriously bad news to Joe
Pilot. (Kids, don't DO this, even if you're a trained professional!)

Personally, I find the mindsets I've encountered in fellow pilots (soaring and
power) regarding spins: often worrisome; always interesting; almost
universally lacking in fundamental understanding of the aerodynamic
uncertainties inherent to "departures from controlled flight" (typically
called "spin" for short).

To make a sweeping general statement which has long colored my own approach to
PIC-ing, if Joe Pilot doesn't truly believe "departure from controlled
flight/spinning" is "uncontrolled flight" Joe Pilot is doing him or herself a
serious disservice if living to fly another flight is personally important.
True whether margins are thin or not...

To make another sweeping general statement, I doubt there's an airframe around
that can't be induced into "uncontrolled flight" from "more or less normal"
control activities and "normal flight energies." Fly accordionly...

Considering typical sailplane flight energies, if you're MUST hit something,
hit it horizontally...in the U.S. this 2013 soaring season, "happily" we've
several pilots still around who can attest to this being better than the
"sudden stoppage" alternative.

End of preachification...

Bob W.

P.S. No intention to be quibbling with/"picking at" any of the contributors to
this - topically important!!! - thread. I fundamentally agree with all of them.

I also thought a 2-33 didn't like to spin until seeing this video:



http://www.flixxy.com/10-year-old-li...-sailplane.htm



Sean Franke

They will spin to some extent, but the CG has got to be way back. With 2 adults you're adding lead to the tail. Not something I'm going to do in a 2-33. I know those that have.

Can some one point me at a single seat glider that won't spin? If you are
going to fly XC in anything other than a K21 surely knowing how to recover
from a spin and practising it is fundamentally important.

I always spin my 27 several times in several different ways each season so
that I am familar with its spin characteristics and recovery. It also
reminds me how dangerous uncontrolled flight near the ground would be.

Jim

On Tuesday, June 4, 2013 7:42:13 AM UTC-7, Jim White wrote:
Can some one point me at a single seat glider that won't spin? If you are

going to fly XC in anything other than a K21 surely knowing how to recover

from a spin and practising it is fundamentally important.



I always spin my 27 several times in several different ways each season so

that I am familar with its spin characteristics and recovery. It also

reminds me how dangerous uncontrolled flight near the ground would be.



Jim

Are intentional spins allowed on the placard of a 27? They aren't on my 26.....

Still, I practice spin departures, sometimes unintentionally in bumpy thermals.

Now to the original point, is there a single pilot who has had spin training who regrets the experience, and would not take it if he/she got a do-over? Anyone?

On Tuesday, June 4, 2013 11:13:03 AM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
Are intentional spins allowed on the placard of a 27? They aren't on my 26.....

Still, I practice spin departures, sometimes unintentionally in bumpy thermals.

Now to the original point, is there a single pilot who has had spin training who regrets the experience, and would not take it if he/she got a do-over? Anyone?

I received spin training and thought it very valuable. I came away permanently convinced that I don't ever want a spin to happen when I'm low! I think every pilot should experience a true spin at altitude.

My LS8 isn't certificated to perform intentional spins, so I practice spin departures occasionally. What I wonder is what people find the most valuable - practicing the control movements to recover from an incipient spin, or experiencing the feeling as the plane gets close to departing into a spin.

My vote is for the feeling. The control movements are pretty much standard for all aircraft, but each airframe "talks" to the pilot differently. I think it's vital to know just how each plane you fly communicates.

-John, Q3

At 15:13 04 June 2013, jfitch wrote:

Now to the original point, is there a single pilot who has had spin
training who regrets the experience, and would not take it if he/she got
a
do-over? Anyone?

Recently we saw a pilot upgrade in performance to an ASW20.
In spite of at least 3 instructors telling him he needed to get spin
training before flying that glider. The new owner has chosen to ignore
their recommendations.

The FAA does not require spin training except for instructors. Maybe some
day the insurance companies will look at the spin accident statistics and
decide to make it a mandatory part of the insurance sign off. It is the
insurance companies that hold more sway on pilot requirements than the FAA.
Insurance policies on corporate aircraft often require not only recurrent
training and even a second pilot. Then again that is to protect the huge
monetary aircraft investment rather than the pilot himself.

On Tuesday, June 4, 2013 8:13:03 AM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:

Are intentional spins allowed on the placard of a 27? They aren't on my 26.....

Now to the original point, is there a single pilot who has had spin training who regrets the experience, and would not take it if he/she got a do-over? Anyone?

Yes, spins are permitted except in Landing Flap and appear in the Aircraft Flight Manual for the ASW-27, as do Loops, Lazy Eights, Chandelles and Stall Turns. I practice spins, spin entries and recovery pretty much every season and perform the other maneuvers regularly. I am at a loss to understand the idea presented earlier that spin practice adds as as much risk as benefit - a quick look at the NTSB accident summaries undercuts this idea. I know of no one who has been in a fatal spin training accident, while on the other hand...

IMO, stalls, spins, unusual attitudes and aerobatics are all important and useful pilot skills. If you've never been upside down in a glider it's not realistic to believe that you'll know instinctively what to do if you end up that way unexpectedly, close to terrain and under stress. Hoping you can avoid it is not a great strategy.

9B

On 6/4/2013 11:50 AM, John Carlyle wrote:
I received spin training and thought it very valuable.
I came away permanently convinced that I don't ever want a spin to
happen when I'm low!

That was my main takeaway from my own pre-solo spin training. (spinning
wasn't required, I insisted on it) I was astounded at the altitude loss
and convinced I wouldn't survive any spin in the pattern.

On Tuesday, June 4, 2013 9:58:23 AM UTC-7, wrote:


Yes, spins are permitted except in Landing Flap and appear in the Aircraft Flight Manual for the ASW-27, as do Loops, Lazy Eights, Chandelles and Stall Turns. I practice spins, spin entries and recovery pretty much every season and perform the other maneuvers regularly. I am at a loss to understand the idea presented earlier that spin practice adds as as much risk as benefit - a quick look at the NTSB accident summaries undercuts this idea. I know of no one who has been in a fatal spin training accident, while on the other hand...

Hmmm, wonder why in the 27 but not the 26. What about the 29 and 31, anybody know?

I, too, find the idea that spin training is as dangerous as accidental (untrained!) spins unbelievable. Is there any shred of data to back that supposition?